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08-29-2011, 01:20 PM
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
The color red, in space, is an indicator of the distance the light has traveled, the speed and direction at which the source is traveling, and therefore the length of time it has traveled. See Red Shift
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I am not disputing that light travels and can have different hues. This does not negate efferent vision.
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08-29-2011, 01:26 PM
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Astroid the Foine Loine between a Poirate and a Farrrmer
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSOZAZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Not religious per se. Rather Mytho-poetic. Religion is where we abdicate responsibility for what we dream up to something we have dreamed up. Science is where we don't.
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no. i'd say religious. religion is about behaviour and conformity. you can be religious about real things.
science should have nothing to do with religion. again- it's all in the application. we can't help ourselves. for some, science has become the dogma of the no-god.
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Religion is about what you believe without evidence - faith in what you cannot see or detect in an objective way.
Science works with what you can detect. Sure - there is a possibility of people treating useful explanations as unchanging, objective truths and blinding themselves to other possibilities, and thus becoming dogmatic. But it it not part of its core function, and such behavior is in fact unscientific.
To change a scientific idea, observations have to match a hypothesis. To change a religious one, the persons doing the believing must want to change it. It's a big difference.
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08-29-2011, 01:30 PM
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
So, your claim is that we see the sphere of gas, not the light it is emitting? Is that what you meant when you said we see the actual star and not the light from the star?
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Quote:
We are getting into subjects that have no relation to Lessans' claim. Of course we would see visible light that the sphere of gas produces. Where does this discredit Lessans' observations?
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I am trying to understand this statement of yours
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
We are not seeing the light from that star; but rather the actual star.
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If we do not see light, that speaks to the mechanism of efferent sight. That has relation to Lessan's claims.
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I'm still not sure what you're getting at. If there is no light, we cannot see anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
So, what did you mean when you said
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We are not seeing the light from that star; but rather the actual star.
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Can you explain it or not?
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We can see light that is produced from a star because that light is within our field of vision (which does not require afferent vision), but we cannot see an event from the past because that does require afferent vision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
If so, why can we not see things in the universe that do not emit visible light? Why can't we see the "actual" black hole?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
I know how science detects black holes. That copy and paste supports my point.
I want to know why we can't see them within the framework of your understanding of efferent vision. You keep claiming we see "actual" objects and images, and not the light.
If that were true, we would be able to see "actual" black holes, with our eyes and telescopes-just like we see the "actual" stars and not the light they emit- rather than simply detect them by observing the effects on things around them.
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Maybe I haven't been clear. We can detect the effects of events that are happening in the here and now, such as the pull of gravity. The pull of gravity is an indication to us that a black holes exist because we can't see them directly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
According to afferent vision, they are invisible because they do not emit visible light and light is how we get the information that becomes a visual image in our brain.
This shouldn't matter with efferent vision, according to your many statements regarding "actual" objects and images and seeing "what is there" to be seen, and what is large enough and bright enough. Black holes are surrounded by stars, there whould be plenty of light "present" to use to see them.
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We couldn't see them if they are not within the visible spectrum. We would need other ways to prove their existence.
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08-29-2011, 01:55 PM
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Astroid the Foine Loine between a Poirate and a Farrrmer
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Re: A revolution in thought
You are now more or less talking at random, Peacegirl. The light from the stars that Shea was referring too is in the visible spectrum.
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08-29-2011, 02:18 PM
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
You are now more or less talking at random, Peacegirl. The light from the stars that Shea was referring too is in the visible spectrum.
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But that light is not being emitted from a black hole. If black holes are invisible, we can detect their presence by other means. I am not talking at random; you are interpreting it that way.
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08-29-2011, 02:20 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
The color red, in space, is an indicator of the distance the light has traveled, the speed and direction at which the source is traveling, and therefore the length of time it has traveled. See Red Shift
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I am not disputing that light travels and can have different hues. This does not negate efferent vision.
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You said the red hue is a "present condition", I demonstrated it is not.
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08-29-2011, 02:23 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
You are now more or less talking at random, Peacegirl. The light from the stars that Shea was referring too is in the visible spectrum.
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But that light is not being emitted from a black hole. If black holes are invisible, we can detect their presence by other means. I am not talking at random; you are interpreting it that way.
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So, do you concede that we can and do see light itself?
Do you retract these statements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
We are not seeing the light from that star; but rather the actual star.
We do not see light. We use light to see.
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08-29-2011, 02:30 PM
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Astroid the Foine Loine between a Poirate and a Farrrmer
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Re: A revolution in thought
As I said, more or less random, and self-contradictory.
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08-29-2011, 02:54 PM
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Spiffiest wanger
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
A camera has never taken a picture of light that developed into a picture that occurred hundreds of years ago.
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After all the free education you've been given, for which you've not evinced an iota of gratitude, you still parrot this mindless babble, which has been disproved by examples too numerous to mention.
Hey, peacegirl, how do you expalain the results in the moons of Jupiter scenario that was carefully presented to you? The actual results that obtain make "real-time" seeing impossible.
Now what?
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08-29-2011, 03:25 PM
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSOZAZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Not religious per se. Rather Mytho-poetic. Religion is where we abdicate responsibility for what we dream up to something we have dreamed up. Science is where we don't.
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no. i'd say religious. religion is about behaviour and conformity. you can be religious about real things.
science should have nothing to do with religion. again- it's all in the application. we can't help ourselves. for some, science has become the dogma of the no-god.
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Religion is about what you believe without evidence - faith in what you cannot see or detect in an objective way.
Science works with what you can detect. Sure - there is a possibility of people treating useful explanations as unchanging, objective truths and blinding themselves to other possibilities, and thus becoming dogmatic. But it it not part of its core function, and such behavior is in fact unscientific.
To change a scientific idea, observations have to match a hypothesis. To change a religious one, the persons doing the believing must want to change it. It's a big difference.
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I hope you're not putting me in the category of a religious fanatic, although I respect their faith immensely. There is actual evidence Vivisectus that the eyes are not a sense organ; there is actual evidence that man's will is not free; and there is actual evidence that we are born again and again.
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08-29-2011, 03:25 PM
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
A camera has never taken a picture of light that developed into a picture that occurred hundreds of years ago.
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After all the free education you've been given, for which you've not evinced an iota of gratitude, you still parrot this mindless babble, which has been disproved by examples too numerous to mention.
Hey, peacegirl, how do you expalain the results in the moons of Jupiter scenario that was carefully presented to you? The actual results that obtain make "real-time" seeing impossible.
Now what?
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I already answered that. Were you eating too much popcorn to hear me?
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08-29-2011, 03:26 PM
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Astroid the Foine Loine between a Poirate and a Farrrmer
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSOZAZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Not religious per se. Rather Mytho-poetic. Religion is where we abdicate responsibility for what we dream up to something we have dreamed up. Science is where we don't.
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no. i'd say religious. religion is about behaviour and conformity. you can be religious about real things.
science should have nothing to do with religion. again- it's all in the application. we can't help ourselves. for some, science has become the dogma of the no-god.
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Religion is about what you believe without evidence - faith in what you cannot see or detect in an objective way.
Science works with what you can detect. Sure - there is a possibility of people treating useful explanations as unchanging, objective truths and blinding themselves to other possibilities, and thus becoming dogmatic. But it it not part of its core function, and such behavior is in fact unscientific.
To change a scientific idea, observations have to match a hypothesis. To change a religious one, the persons doing the believing must want to change it. It's a big difference.
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I hope you're not putting me in that category. There is actual evidence Vivisectus that the eyes are not a sense organ; there is actual evidence that man's will is not free; and there is actual evidence that we are born again and again.
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That is good to hear! I look forward to seeing it.
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08-29-2011, 03:27 PM
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
As I said, more or less random, and self-contradictory.
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I may have not been clear which made it sound contradictory, but nothing was actually a contradiction.
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08-29-2011, 03:28 PM
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Member
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSOZAZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Not religious per se. Rather Mytho-poetic. Religion is where we abdicate responsibility for what we dream up to something we have dreamed up. Science is where we don't.
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no. i'd say religious. religion is about behaviour and conformity. you can be religious about real things.
science should have nothing to do with religion. again- it's all in the application. we can't help ourselves. for some, science has become the dogma of the no-god.
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Religion is about what you believe without evidence - faith in what you cannot see or detect in an objective way.
Science works with what you can detect. Sure - there is a possibility of people treating useful explanations as unchanging, objective truths and blinding themselves to other possibilities, and thus becoming dogmatic. But it it not part of its core function, and such behavior is in fact unscientific.
To change a scientific idea, observations have to match a hypothesis. To change a religious one, the persons doing the believing must want to change it. It's a big difference.
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I hope you're not putting me in that category. There is actual evidence Vivisectus that the eyes are not a sense organ; there is actual evidence that man's will is not free; and there is actual evidence that we are born again and again.
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That is good to hear! I look forward to seeing it.
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If you haven't seen it by now, I don't know if you ever will.
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08-29-2011, 03:46 PM
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Astroid the Foine Loine between a Poirate and a Farrrmer
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSOZAZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Not religious per se. Rather Mytho-poetic. Religion is where we abdicate responsibility for what we dream up to something we have dreamed up. Science is where we don't.
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no. i'd say religious. religion is about behaviour and conformity. you can be religious about real things.
science should have nothing to do with religion. again- it's all in the application. we can't help ourselves. for some, science has become the dogma of the no-god.
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Religion is about what you believe without evidence - faith in what you cannot see or detect in an objective way.
Science works with what you can detect. Sure - there is a possibility of people treating useful explanations as unchanging, objective truths and blinding themselves to other possibilities, and thus becoming dogmatic. But it it not part of its core function, and such behavior is in fact unscientific.
To change a scientific idea, observations have to match a hypothesis. To change a religious one, the persons doing the believing must want to change it. It's a big difference.
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I hope you're not putting me in that category. There is actual evidence Vivisectus that the eyes are not a sense organ; there is actual evidence that man's will is not free; and there is actual evidence that we are born again and again.
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That is good to hear! I look forward to seeing it.
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If you haven't seen it by now, I don't know if you ever will.
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Ah. Evidence that is only visible to those that are already convinced.
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08-29-2011, 04:02 PM
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Member
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
The color red, in space, is an indicator of the distance the light has traveled, the speed and direction at which the source is traveling, and therefore the length of time it has traveled. See Red Shift
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I am not disputing that light travels and can have different hues. This does not negate efferent vision.
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You said the red hue is a "present condition", I demonstrated it is not.
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It might be coming from a past source, but we are seeing it in the present, therefore we are seeing the red hue efferently.
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08-29-2011, 04:03 PM
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Member
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSOZAZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Not religious per se. Rather Mytho-poetic. Religion is where we abdicate responsibility for what we dream up to something we have dreamed up. Science is where we don't.
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no. i'd say religious. religion is about behaviour and conformity. you can be religious about real things.
science should have nothing to do with religion. again- it's all in the application. we can't help ourselves. for some, science has become the dogma of the no-god.
|
Religion is about what you believe without evidence - faith in what you cannot see or detect in an objective way.
Science works with what you can detect. Sure - there is a possibility of people treating useful explanations as unchanging, objective truths and blinding themselves to other possibilities, and thus becoming dogmatic. But it it not part of its core function, and such behavior is in fact unscientific.
To change a scientific idea, observations have to match a hypothesis. To change a religious one, the persons doing the believing must want to change it. It's a big difference.
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I hope you're not putting me in that category. There is actual evidence Vivisectus that the eyes are not a sense organ; there is actual evidence that man's will is not free; and there is actual evidence that we are born again and again.
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That is good to hear! I look forward to seeing it.
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If you haven't seen it by now, I don't know if you ever will.
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Ah. Evidence that is only visible to those that are already convinced.
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Ah. Evidence that is only visible to those that can see the relations.
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08-29-2011, 04:32 PM
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Member
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSOZAZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Not religious per se. Rather Mytho-poetic. Religion is where we abdicate responsibility for what we dream up to something we have dreamed up. Science is where we don't.
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no. i'd say religious. religion is about behaviour and conformity. you can be religious about real things.
science should have nothing to do with religion. again- it's all in the application. we can't help ourselves. for some, science has become the dogma of the no-god.
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Religion is about what you believe without evidence - faith in what you cannot see or detect in an objective way.
Science works with what you can detect. Sure - there is a possibility of people treating useful explanations as unchanging, objective truths and blinding themselves to other possibilities, and thus becoming dogmatic. But it it not part of its core function, and such behavior is in fact unscientific.
To change a scientific idea, observations have to match a hypothesis. To change a religious one, the persons doing the believing must want to change it. It's a big difference.
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I have to correct you even though this post was not directed at me. You don't have to have a hypothesis in order for an observation to be scientific and accurate.
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08-29-2011, 04:36 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
The color red, in space, is an indicator of the distance the light has traveled, the speed and direction at which the source is traveling, and therefore the length of time it has traveled. See Red Shift
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I am not disputing that light travels and can have different hues. This does not negate efferent vision.
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You said the red hue is a "present condition", I demonstrated it is not.
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It might be coming from a past source, but we are seeing it in the present, therefore we are seeing the red hue efferently.
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So, you now concede we can and do see the past?
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08-29-2011, 04:56 PM
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Astroid the Foine Loine between a Poirate and a Farrrmer
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSOZAZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Not religious per se. Rather Mytho-poetic. Religion is where we abdicate responsibility for what we dream up to something we have dreamed up. Science is where we don't.
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no. i'd say religious. religion is about behaviour and conformity. you can be religious about real things.
science should have nothing to do with religion. again- it's all in the application. we can't help ourselves. for some, science has become the dogma of the no-god.
|
Religion is about what you believe without evidence - faith in what you cannot see or detect in an objective way.
Science works with what you can detect. Sure - there is a possibility of people treating useful explanations as unchanging, objective truths and blinding themselves to other possibilities, and thus becoming dogmatic. But it it not part of its core function, and such behavior is in fact unscientific.
To change a scientific idea, observations have to match a hypothesis. To change a religious one, the persons doing the believing must want to change it. It's a big difference.
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I have to correct you even though this post was not directed at me. You don't have to have a hypothesis in order for an observation to be scientific and accurate.
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Actually you don't like that bit - that is where an observation disproves a hypothesis, and then that hypothesis must be amended or abandoned.
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08-29-2011, 05:16 PM
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Member
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
You are now more or less talking at random, Peacegirl. The light from the stars that Shea was referring too is in the visible spectrum.
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But that light is not being emitted from a black hole. If black holes are invisible, we can detect their presence by other means. I am not talking at random; you are interpreting it that way.
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So, do you concede that we can and do see light itself?
Do you retract these statements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
We are not seeing the light from that star; but rather the actual star.
We do not see light. We use light to see.
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I see the sun because the light that it emits allows me to see it. The sun is not pure light; it emits light, therefore the conditions are such that I can see this ball of gas.
The Sun is a huge, burning ball of gas that gives off heat and light through nuclear reactions. ... It may look solid, but the Sun is made up of gas--mostly hydrogen and helium.
http://www.globio.org/glossopedia/ar...aspx?art_id=37
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08-29-2011, 05:18 PM
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSOZAZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Not religious per se. Rather Mytho-poetic. Religion is where we abdicate responsibility for what we dream up to something we have dreamed up. Science is where we don't.
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no. i'd say religious. religion is about behaviour and conformity. you can be religious about real things.
science should have nothing to do with religion. again- it's all in the application. we can't help ourselves. for some, science has become the dogma of the no-god.
|
Religion is about what you believe without evidence - faith in what you cannot see or detect in an objective way.
Science works with what you can detect. Sure - there is a possibility of people treating useful explanations as unchanging, objective truths and blinding themselves to other possibilities, and thus becoming dogmatic. But it it not part of its core function, and such behavior is in fact unscientific.
To change a scientific idea, observations have to match a hypothesis. To change a religious one, the persons doing the believing must want to change it. It's a big difference.
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I have to correct you even though this post was not directed at me. You don't have to have a hypothesis in order for an observation to be scientific and accurate.
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Actually you don't like that bit - that is where an observation disproves a hypothesis, and then that hypothesis must be amended or abandoned.
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Of course I don't like that bit if it's not true. If a hypothesis does not conform to reality, then the hypothesis has to be abandoned, but that is not what is happening in this case.
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08-29-2011, 05:20 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Re: A revolution in thought
Why not just answer the questions? Why do you continue to weasel?
Do you stand by these statements or do you retract them? I can dig up several others where you maintain that we cannot and do not see light itself. And now you seem to be waffling.
Do we or do we not see light itself?
Quote:
We are not seeing the light from that star; but rather the actual star.
We do not see light. We use light to see.
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08-29-2011, 05:21 PM
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Astroid the Foine Loine between a Poirate and a Farrrmer
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Re: A revolution in thought
Then please explain to me in your own words how cameras work (don't just say they take a picture, describe the mechanism by which they do this) and then explain to me why a camera, which has to wait for the light to travel, does not see something different from the human eye.
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08-29-2011, 05:26 PM
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Member
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Re: A revolution in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
The color red, in space, is an indicator of the distance the light has traveled, the speed and direction at which the source is traveling, and therefore the length of time it has traveled. See Red Shift
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I am not disputing that light travels and can have different hues. This does not negate efferent vision.
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You said the red hue is a "present condition", I demonstrated it is not.
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It might be coming from a past source, but we are seeing it in the present, therefore we are seeing the red hue efferently.
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So, you now concede we can and do see the past?
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We are seeing light that has traveled, therefore as it shifts color, we would see the latter color, but we are seeing this change in real time. Our brain is not interpreting these images because of electro-chemical signals (how many times do I have to repeat this before you get it ). If this is true, then we cannot see a past event that no longer exists (i.e., from the light itself) unless that event exists in the present. The light then becomes a necessary condition which allows us to see that event in real time.
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