I'm a nice guy, and it's destroying my life...

[Zikes]

"Eh, I wrote all this up while chatting on MSN. Didn't really write it with the intention of posting it here or anywhere else, but a little jager fixed all that. It's basically just a brief synopsis of the biggest problem in my life right now."

I want to start off by saying I'm not trying to glorify myself with this. I'm not out to talk about what a "great, nice guy" I am. Hell, "pitiful" will probably stand out more than "great" or "nice", but I'm not after that, either. I'm writing this because there's certain issues the typical nice guy has to deal with that many people aren't really aware of, most often the nice guy himself. I'm writing this because I feel like I need to give people a little insight into myself and those like me. I tend to do a lot of selfless things for girls, a lot of pathetic, pointless, selfless things. I've sacrificed half a night's sleep while on the phone with a girl because she was having nightmares. We weren't talking, no, she wanted me to listen to her sleep and try to soothe her out of the nightmare when it sounded like she was having one. That went on for a number of weeks. I intervened when some psycho girl started harassing a girl I knew over a mutual ex-boyfriend (and I do mean psycho). Hell, I even fulfilled one girl's (semi-) lifelong dream of going to a Marilyn Manson concert by driving her several hundred miles to see it.

The list goes on, I can't even remember most of them. I guess the whole idea was to make myself so ideal, so helpful, and so damned indispensible that they're supposed to find me somehow attractive. Indeed many of them sang my praises the entire time, always talking about what a "great guy" I am. The problem is, no matter how obviously interested I was (and I'm sure it got pretty obvious) they were just as obviously not interested. Most every girl I've known has simply thrown me aside like a used toy the moment another boy comes along.

I've recently started likening myself to the female's version of porn. Not as good as the real thing, but a somewhat decent substitute in the meantime. Need a guy that'll listen to every word you say, and actually try to help you out with your problems? I'm your man. Need a guy to make you feel desirable? I'm your man. Need proof that there are still nice guys in the world? I'm your man. Need a boyfriend? How about that guy you ran into at Denny's? For every girl that used me and threw me aside I convinced myself I'd have to try harder with the next one, make myself truly indispensible.

For the longest time I wondered how the hell I fit the bill of the "perfect boyfriend" but never quite made it to the "boyfriend" part. Of course, at first I was sure it was just a complete lack of physical attraction. Luckily after years of battling self-image problems I'm reasonably sure that's not entirely the case. I may not be the best looking guy around, but I'm at least average (or so says HotOrNot).

While the real reason is probably painfully obvious to you by now, it can actually take a while for a guy to realize he's spent half of his life moulding himself into a walking doormat.

And therein lies the problem. You'd have to be a real dominatrix to want a guy like that, and unfortunately for me that's not exactly my type of girl. But a guy like that can't just change overnight. I've spent the majority of my life developing the mentality that making other people happy will make me happy. The happier they are, the happier I should be.

How do you reverse a mentality like that? Morally and logically it's got to be one of the most sound mindsets possible. A good friend of mine, whom I've known for years, had the same dilemma. He'd had a horrible breakup with what everyone in my school theorized was the nicest girl on earth. After they'd gotten really close she dumped him, and for some reason decided to invite him to her wedding with another guy shortly afterwards. Devastated, he decided to pull a full 180 and become the biggest asshole possible, because apparently it's the assholes that always get the good girls.

Of course, that's not quite the answer I'm looking for, but apparently it's pretty close. I've spent so much time just giving of myself that if anyone asks something of me and I don't comply I can't help but feel guilty, no matter how trivial or extreme the request. And, of course, no matter how apologetic they are or how many times they say "you don't have to do it" I make myself feel obligated and I try as hard as possible to see to it they don't feel guilty for asking of me.

As well they shouldn't, it's my own damn fault and I need to learn how to say no.

But I can't just go saying "no" to everything, or I become the asshole. Or at least, that's what it feels like. And that's definitely a road I don't want to go down. Lord knows I've considered it, even tried it a couple times, but I guess my conscience is more than just years of self-conditioning...that or the self-conditioning is a hell of a lot worse than I thought.

So, how does a guy recover from something like that? Obviously it starts with setting the boundary between being a doormat and just being helpful, but that's not quite as obvious a boundary for me as it is for most. Of course, plenty of it is obvious (even before this little revelation) but it's still not easy to turn down the chance to help someone.

I spent years building upon what I thought was the "ideal me", and now I have to tear it down and rebuild. Meanwhile, the resultant depression and loneliness wear away at my will to even try. No doubt it'll take twice as long to fix, if ever, because I embedded this mentality in myself during my most formative years, but I know I'll never be happy if it continues.

[Godless Dave]

Your problem isn't that you're a nice guy. Your problem is that you're a doormat.

Don't beat yourself up over it. I encounter this attitude a lot - but more often among women than men. I'm talking about the attitude that it is always rude or unkind to say "no".

It is not rude to say "no" to an unreasonble request. It would only be rude if you said "Fuck no, bitch!" (and there are certainly occasions where that response would be appropriate).

I have a friend like you. He thinks the way to impress a woman is to do whatever she wants and be at her beck and call. Naturally the only women who he "attracts" are users.

If a friend asks you to feed her cat while she is out of town next week, that is a reasonable request. And either "yes" or "no" are polite answers to it. "Yes, I'd be happy to do that for you" or "No, I'm sorry, I will be too busy next week to do that."

If a friend asks you to feed her cat starting today because she's on her way to the airport and didn't plan ahead, that's an unreasonable request. If you say "yes" to it you are letting her know that you will agree to unreasonable requests, and she never has to plan ahead in the future because you will bail her out. Say "no".

But OMG! If you say no, she might never call you again. Good! You don't need "friends" like that. A real friend will understand that you are not her servant.

If a friend asks you to lend her money so she can go to the casino, the appropriate response is "fuck no, bitch!"

[Adora]

You're a sad little wanker, aren't you? You don't even have the balls to be yourself so instead you have to fake being an "indispensable" martyr to attempt (and miserably fail, obviously) to get people to like you enough to suck your cock. To use the words of an equally sad little wanker, "How's that workin' out for you?"

And please, don't assume to even begin to know squat about the types that do/don't attract dominatrixes. Just... no. Grow some cojones, please. Is there really some kind of passive-aggressive martyrdom fashion that suddenly has become stylish and I didn't get the memo? I mean, c'mon, you are glorifying it. You get a kick out of attracting fucked-up women you can coddle and comfort, the same way women who marry wife-beater after wife-beater get some fucked-up subconscious martyr high from the shit.

Seriously mate, get your fucking head sorted. Women are just human beings. We fart and shit and yawn and burp like every other mammal on the planet. Stop turning them into precious princesses in your mind, and maybe you'll stop being such a moron and trying to be the perfect prince in turn. It's really that fucking simple.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Zikes

I spent years building upon what I thought was the "ideal me", and now I have to tear it down and rebuild. Meanwhile, the resultant depression and loneliness wear away at my will to even try. No doubt it'll take twice as long to fix, if ever, because I embedded this mentality in myself during my most formative years, but I know I'll never be happy if it continues.

Well if Adora doesn't snap you out of it, nothing will.

Seriously, Zikes, you say you've been building the "ideal me" but it's not, really. The rest of your post indicates that you've been building the "my ideal of what a girl's ideal me would be" and there are just too many degrees of separation in there.

You're a considerate, generous human being, that much is a given, and if you switched on the auto-asshole device you'd still be mutilating yourself only in another way. So keep doing things for people because you're into it and you want to help out, and stop doing the freakishly onerous things you'd never want to do otherwise.

[Dragar]

I think he realised that wasn't working, Adora. He's asking how to adjust his personality to no longer be like that.

My observations: you're right. A lot of girls, especially the pretty ones, like a challenge. They don't want someone useful, they want someone exciting and sexy and independant. They want someone they can never quite have, completely.

They don't want someone who opens up to them and tells them about all their deepest feelings and insecurities, however willing they are to drive them to the airport, do their homework, lend them lecture notes, or pay their legal expenses.

As for breaking that habit...it's a habit. It'll take time, and willpower. There are various techniques you can try, I suppose. I was in the same boat a number of years back, and basically quit doing anything for anyone. I gradually eased back into the situation where I do nice things for people but on my terms not theirs.

That said, making this change probably won't help your love life. Considering some of the people I know who have steady girlfriends, the reason you suffer from a lack of one is deeper than being too nice.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by Zikes

I want to start off by saying I'm not trying to glorify myself with this. I'm not out to talk about what a "great, nice guy" I am. Hell, "pitiful" will probably stand out more than "great" or "nice", but I'm not after that, either. I'm writing this because there's certain issues the typical nice guy has to deal with that many people aren't really aware of, most often the nice guy himself. I'm writing this because I feel like I need to give people a little insight into myself and those like me. I tend to do a lot of selfless things for girls, a lot of pathetic, pointless, selfless things. I've sacrificed half a night's sleep while on the phone with a girl because she was having nightmares. We weren't talking, no, she wanted me to listen to her sleep and try to soothe her out of the nightmare when it sounded like she was having one. That went on for a number of weeks. I intervened when some psycho girl started harassing a girl I knew over a mutual ex-boyfriend (and I do mean psycho). Hell, I even fulfilled one girl's (semi-) lifelong dream of going to a Marilyn Manson concert by driving her several hundred miles to see it.

Sounds like things some guys do when they've got nothing else on the side.

The list goes on, I can't even remember most of them. I guess the whole idea was to make myself so ideal, so helpful, and so damned indispensible that they're supposed to find me somehow attractive.

I think you're beginning to realize that it makes you a doormat, however sometimes the alternative is being alone so it's understandable. You could only hope to be attractive to them, but even if you aren't, at least you're not alone. Do you think it goes something like that to a degree?

Indeed many of them sang my praises the entire time, always talking about what a "great guy" I am. The problem is, no matter how obviously interested I was (and I'm sure it got pretty obvious) they were just as obviously not interested. Most every girl I've known has simply thrown me aside like a used toy the moment another boy comes along.

I have a very good idea what you are speaking of, have a friend very much like that though he's grown up quite a bit.

I ponder sometimes about the fact that it annoys me that he'll never take sides, or never used to at least, but then that means he never takes sides against me so then there's always an open door. In our case though, it's mostly a win-win, he can call me just as I can call him, if I need a few bucks, he'll give it to me and I'll pay him back plus so.

But, he picked up this chick (as a friend) recently who is known to be a user and so he's got this little catty thing going on with us friends who want to protect him and this (and these) girls in the past who are only using him. She won't have anything to do with any of his friends, and we're like, oh come on guy but at the same time, mayhaps he likes her attention just as much as she's using him for his.

We've tried to help him grow a backbone, I even saw a bit of one not too long ago, looked good on him.

I've recently started likening myself to the female's version of porn. Not as good as the real thing, but a somewhat decent substitute in the meantime. Need a guy that'll listen to every word you say, and actually try to help you out with your problems? I'm your man. Need a guy to make you feel desirable? I'm your man. Need proof that there are still nice guys in the world? I'm your man. Need a boyfriend? How about that guy you ran into at Denny's? For every girl that used me and threw me aside I convinced myself I'd have to try harder with the next one, make myself truly indispensible.

Yeah, it goes like that.

For the longest time I wondered how the hell I fit the bill of the "perfect boyfriend" but never quite made it to the "boyfriend" part. Of course, at first I was sure it was just a complete lack of physical attraction. Luckily after years of battling self-image problems I'm reasonably sure that's not entirely the case. I may not be the best looking guy around, but I'm at least average (or so says HotOrNot).

It's helpful to realize to that what's on the inside can make the outside much more attractive, especially self-esteem.

While the real reason is probably painfully obvious to you by now, it can actually take a while for a guy to realize he's spent half of his life moulding himself into a walking doormat.

That or you just really didn't have alot of other options so you thought, why not? You have gone out of your way for alot of girls it sounds like, but did it give you something to do at least?

And therein lies the problem. You'd have to be a real dominatrix to want a guy like that, and unfortunately for me that's not exactly my type of girl.

Not necessarily, but I don't know necessarily how things work for girls like that.

But a guy like that can't just change overnight. I've spent the majority of my life developing the mentality that making other people happy will make me happy. The happier they are, the happier I should be.

How do you reverse a mentality like that? Morally and logically it's got to be one of the most sound mindsets possible.

No, not at all. Even Christianity says to sure, serve God first, then love others as you love yourself. You have to take care of you first.

I remember a girl I saw on tv who went to Africa, came back and was so unhappy being here in all this commercialism after what she had seen, she wanted to go back and help. She had to be convinced that she could help more here than she could just going over there digging in, she was a young girl, and she wanted to be a doctor. She could help way more as a doctor than just as a girl with good intentions, for example.

Take care of you first, find a way to be happy yourself first, and then worry about everybody else because if you don't, my personal opinion is that you just become unhappy like all the rest.

A good friend of mine, whom I've known for years, had the same dilemma. He'd had a horrible breakup with what everyone in my school theorized was the nicest girl on earth. After they'd gotten really close she dumped him, and for some reason decided to invite him to her wedding with another guy shortly afterwards. Devastated, he decided to pull a full 180 and become the biggest asshole possible, because apparently it's the assholes that always get the good girls.

I would disagree with that, but I think there's a balance between having your own strength and how that relates to others.

Of course, that's not quite the answer I'm looking for, but apparently it's pretty close. I've spent so much time just giving of myself that if anyone asks something of me and I don't comply I can't help but feel guilty, no matter how trivial or extreme the request. And, of course, no matter how apologetic they are or how many times they say "you don't have to do it" I make myself feel obligated and I try as hard as possible to see to it they don't feel guilty for asking of me.

As well they shouldn't, it's my own damn fault and I need to learn how to say no.

But I can't just go saying "no" to everything, or I become the asshole. Or at least, that's what it feels like. And that's definitely a road I don't want to go down. Lord knows I've considered it, even tried it a couple times, but I guess my conscience is more than just years of self-conditioning...that or the self-conditioning is a hell of a lot worse than I thought.

So, how does a guy recover from something like that? Obviously it starts with setting the boundary between being a doormat and just being helpful, but that's not quite as obvious a boundary for me as it is for most. Of course, plenty of it is obvious (even before this little revelation) but it's still not easy to turn down the chance to help someone.

I spent years building upon what I thought was the "ideal me", and now I have to tear it down and rebuild. Meanwhile, the resultant depression and loneliness wear away at my will to even try. No doubt it'll take twice as long to fix, if ever, because I embedded this mentality in myself during my most formative years, but I know I'll never be happy if it continues.

It's so familiar, I completely understand I think, how it is for you.

[AspenMama]

Zikes-- it sounds like perhaps you were doing too much for the wrong girls. One of my good friends recently met a very nice guy. They both made their interest in each other quite clear-- mutual flirting, long telephone conversations, talks of visits (it is a long distance thing). But, he was so wrapped up in helping out another female friend that she finally gave up on a relationship with him. He had made these long term prior commitments to his friend and when someone else came along, he was too busy meeting these obligations. He admitted that while he was unhappy, he also would feel very guilty for backing out even briefly.

So, Zikes, I'm thinking that it may not be an error of being too nice-- but of being too nice to the wrong person-- to women who don't appreciate you, or do things to make you happy and cared for as well. Look for the girl who actually likes you and proves it through her actions.

[username]

In reading your OP you sound to me like a guy who once dated my sister in law. The guy was a real gem of a person and I liked him a lot, but he waited on her hand and foot 24x7. She really liked the guy, dated him for a couple years, but then moved on. She simply didn't respect him because, according to her, he had no backbone and didn't respect himself and it was unattractive.

She would actually intentionally use him just to see how far he would go. Crazy crap like call late at night and say she was hungry, would he go pick up some food and bring it over. He would. Never any question that he would.

I think that Godless Dave nailed it fairly well when he said you were being a doormat. You have to learn to recognize the difference between a reasonable request and an unreasonable one. You are going to have to force yourself to say 'no' to unreasonable requests and sometimes, just for the sake of doing it, say 'no' to reasonable requests.

As likable as I suspect you are, and as terrific a human being as I suspect you are, being a doormat communicates something very unattractive and that is a lack of self respect. Follow Nancy Reagan's advice and 'just say no.'.

[TomJoe]

Originally Posted by Zikes

I've spent the majority of my life developing the mentality that making other people happy will make me happy. The happier they are, the happier I should be.

How do you reverse a mentality like that? Morally and logically it's got to be one of the most sound mindsets possible.

Not really. IMO, logically it makes no sense, and making yourself miserable to make others happy is certainly not a very moral position either. You have as much (if not moreso) of an obligation to yourself, than you do to others.

Put requests to a litmus test. How does <Action X> make me feel? Or better yet, How would other people react to <Action X>? If it sounds silly (like sitting on the phone listening to someone sleep) then refuse. Politely of course, but it's an unreasonable request.

I don't think you can ever truly make someone happy. Relationships are based on cooperation. If someone is going to be happy, they'll be receptive and appreciative of your good will ... but it's their own mindset which allows them to be happy. Likewise, if you want to be happy ... you have to find that within yourself. Don't go looking for it outside.

[Zikes]

haha I may not have much of a backbone but thank god I'm thick skinned

Thank you all for the kind and unkind yet necessary words, I know I needed it.

[username]

Originally Posted by Zikes

haha I may not have much of a backbone but thank god I'm thick skinned

Thank you all for the kind and unkind yet necessary words, I know I needed it.

Oh c'mon, just let it loose and call us a bunch of dim witted fucktards. You know you want to

[Zikes]

Originally Posted by username

Oh c'mon, just let it loose and call us a bunch of dim witted fucktards. You know you want to

oh alright but just for you, you dim witted fucktard you

[freemonkey]

Hey, Zikes. Years ago, someone said to me, "You're too nice". She did not mean it as a compliment. I was too busy trying to please everyone else (namely, my dick of a husband) that I was not taking care of myself.

You're right, its hard to change the way you are after all this time. But just try to take it one day at a time. Examine your motives.... what do you think you will get in exchange for your "niceness"? Then ask yourself if there are other ways of getting what you want.

Secondly, look at the kind of women you're attracting/attracted to.... they appear to be insecure, immature and/or users. Is that the kind of relationship you want? I think probably not, or you wouldn't be feeling the need to change the way you operate.

A mature, adult relationship, while not perfect, has different goals and different starting points than one where the partners are not equal and respectful of each other.

[Sock Puppet]

In addition to what others have said about your self-image issues, I think you might need to reassess your image of the women themselves. I get the impression that you're looking for the combination to the lock, so that you can open it once and for all and get the goodies inside. In other words, you might be saying to yourself, "Well, this isn't working, so what can I do that will work so I can get what I want out of women (or at least out of Ms. Right)?"

It's not just the desperation that's turning your female friends off, although that's certainly part of it. It's also the vibe they may be picking up that they're really just a means to an end for you. You want to be so useful to them that they'll respond in kind, and be "useful" to you. It would help a great deal if you could take a real interest in them -- not just their desires and needs, but their personalities, what they think about, their ethics, etc. Before you really get to know someone, you don't even know whether a relationship with her is even desirable. Take your eyes off the "prize" and take a good look at the human being in front of you.

[godfry n. glad]

Hey... I'm a nice guy. And goofy lookin', too. I done alright by myself.

My experience is that in their thirties, women realize that a lot of those "sexy, edgy" guys are unstable testosterone platforms and decide they'd like to spend time with a nice guy who treats them like a person instead of just a fuck pillow. You can't be a doormat, either, 'cause the worthwhile women like guys who know who they are and are content with that...even if they have to accomodate some rough edges.

I also suspect that handsome, sexy, edgy men are much the same as beautiful flirtatious women...they have a lot of choice in a lot of different sex partners. A lot of the time. (Along with a lot of STDs.) This is why I am so skeptical about putting a great deal of time into a "really beautiful" (as in currently accepted Victoria's Secret model standards) women. Us FLGs are just happy that somebody notices and has quirky tastes.

Time wounds all heels.

[Veritas]

It could work the other way. VS models could be the cleanest women around. No one tries to fuck 'em cause they all think they don't stand a chance. I bet they're all still virgins.

[The Lone Ranger]

Zikes: If I may be so bold, I can relate somewhat to your situation. But it seems to me that the real problem, as you have suggested yourself, and others have stated is that there’s a difference between being a “nice guy” and being a doormat.


I think I can honestly say that I’m a genuinely nice guy. I’m polite, considerate, helpful, and so forth. Heck, I’d have made a great Boy Scout, as many a person has told me. I’m a “nice guy” because I genuinely believe that’s right. That is, I wouldn’t be able to respect myself if I didn’t treat people courteously and respectfully – it’s how I prefer to be treated, so I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t treat others accordingly.

But there’s no contradiction with being a genuinely nice person and being willing and able to stand up for yourself. I must confess that it took me some time to discover this. Sadly, there are plenty of people who’re more than willing to take advantage of anyone who’ll let them. And such people will not respect you for letting them do it. Please keep that in mind! The way to deal with someone who’s taking advantage of you is most-definitely not to redouble your efforts to be an even “nicer” guy, in the hopes that (s)he will wake up one day and realize what a wonderful person you are.

Such people are like vampires, and the sooner you put your foot down and stop letting them suck your life away, the better-off you’ll be.



Let me repeat for emphasis though, that there’s no contradiction between being a genuinely nice person and being willing to stand up for yourself. Think of it this way: does a person who doesn’t truly care for you, who’s only using you, deserve your time and effort? No! Time is a precious and limited commodity; our lives are too short as it is. You’ve better things to do than to let the vampires suck up your precious time.


Sadly, it’s true that an awful lot of women – especially younger women – seem to be much more attracted to the “bad boys” than to genuinely nice guys. Well, to be blunt, that’s because they’re immature. Would you be happy with such a person? Probably not. As godfry n. glad pointed out, a lot of these women will realize some day that they’ve made foolish choices in dating the “bad boys.” As you get older, I think you’ll find that the number of “nice girls” who’re looking for genuinely “nice guys” increases. In the meantime, there are genuine “nice girls” out there – of every age – who’re sincerely interested in meeting genuinely nice guys. I know this from experience. They may seem to be the minority, but they exist.

A word of caution. Some of these women may have been burned in the past. It’s not necessarily a good idea to try too hard to impress women with what a nice guy you are. Some of them may be inclined to wonder if it isn’t an act. If you’re the real deal, they’ll come to appreciate that as they get to know you.

In other words: be yourself! This is good advice no matter who you are.


Best wishes,

Michael

[Adora]

Originally Posted by Dragar

I think he realised that wasn't working, Adora. He's asking how to adjust his personality to no longer be like that.

And I gave him some pointers to fix his problem as well. See? I can be helpful as well, sometimes.

[Veritas]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

In other words: be yourself! This is good advice no matter who you are.

Unless you're the reincarnation of Stalin, of course. In which case it's no wonder you can't get a girlfriend.

[fragment]

Y'know, if it turned out that the whole reincarnation/karma thing was true, I'd really hope Stalin's next time walking the planet would be a little bit worse than not being able to get a girlfriend.

[Plant Woman]

Before I read what others wrote, I will answer, and apologize ahead of time if someone else said the same thing.

First you need to become your own best friend. Work on what makes you happy, work on finding yourself. You seem lost, wandering around in other people's lives, cleaning up their messes. You need to clean up the mess you are making of your own life. Not that you are a bad person, but you are messing yourself up trying to fix everyone else.

You know when you are in a jet plane and they tell you if the oxygen masks comes down, put your own mask on first before you help someone else. If you don't help yourself first you may pass out before you help someone else out and that means you are totally useless to both of you, and perhaps dead.

Ok so why this need to fix everyone else? This is where you may want to start. If I fix her, she will like me? Obviously that's not working. If I take her 100 miles to a concert, she will adore me? Obviously that didn't work and you wound up feeling used.

So maybe the next time you think you would like to spend time with a woman, don't act the hero and think you have to do something huge to get her to like you. Take it slow, ask her to lunch, go for a walk in the park, or go do something simply silly, laugh, have a good time. Make sure you are clear that it is a date. If she says no to lunch, move on. If she says yes and you both have a great time and seem to click than go from there. Heck you want a woman to like you for who you are not someone at their beck and call. That kind of relationship is going to take your further than anything else.

Now the other thing is why the attraction to some of these women who obviously needs to grow up themselves or are broken. How about instead look for a woman who can stand on her own, and doesn't need the hero? Start liking yourself more and women will too. How can you expect someone to like and respect you, when you don't seem to like or respect yourself?

Edit: I just read the other's great advice. I hope you are listening carefully.

Perhaps the difference between the "bad boy" and the "nice guy" may be that one comes across more sure of themselves. But a nice guy that is sure of himself, is the one that comes out the winner in the end.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by scarletpeaches

It could work the other way. VS models could be the cleanest women around. No one tries to fuck 'em cause they all think they don't stand a chance. I bet they're all still virgins.

That's why I included the word "flirtatious". Any woman willing to flirt will garner interest and interaction, even if she's plain. If she's beautiful and shy and undemonstrative, yeah...she'll be lonely. 'Til somebody takes advantage of her, then she'll be bitter.

[Dragar]

Originally Posted by Adora

And I gave him some pointers to fix his problem as well. See? I can be helpful as well, sometimes.

You're so cute when you're trying to be nice!

[FormerFundie2004]

Originally Posted by Zikes

I tend to do a lot of selfless things for girls, a lot of pathetic, pointless, selfless things. I've sacrificed half a night's sleep while on the phone with a girl because she was having nightmares. We weren't talking, no, she wanted me to listen to her sleep and try to soothe her out of the nightmare when it sounded like she was having one. That went on for a number of weeks. I intervened when some psycho girl started harassing a girl I knew over a mutual ex-boyfriend (and I do mean psycho). Hell, I even fulfilled one girl's (semi-) lifelong dream of going to a Marilyn Manson concert by driving her several hundred miles to see it.

You need to start respecting yourself and the girls will respect you. Women cannot like a guy who is a doormat. Saying no to unreasonable requests will cause women to respect and like you. You have to ask yourself, did that girl with the nightmares deserve your attention? Did she deserve your loss of sleep? Probably not. You need to ask yourself if they have earned such things from you, rather than doing it while hoping they will reciprocate. Because they simply will not reciprocate.

I mean, doing small favors while hoping they will return the favors is different. But losing hours of sleep is too much to ask. And it draws the attention of user-women. So any women that show you attention will be users, and you will probably (or might have already) come to view women as users.

The list goes on, I can't even remember most of them. I guess the whole idea was to make myself so ideal, so helpful, and so damned indispensible that they're supposed to find me somehow attractive.

And obviously it's not working. That's cuz doormats aren't attractive.

I've recently started likening myself to the female's version of porn. Not as good as the real thing, but a somewhat decent substitute in the meantime. Need a guy that'll listen to every word you say, and actually try to help you out with your problems? I'm your man. Need a guy to make you feel desirable? I'm your man. Need proof that there are still nice guys in the world? I'm your man. Need a boyfriend? How about that guy you ran into at Denny's? For every girl that used me and threw me aside I convinced myself I'd have to try harder with the next one, make myself truly indispensible.

Stop doing these undeserving girls favors. Be a gentleman, but don't do favors. Open the door for them, but don't drive them 100 miles to a concert. Smile at them, but do not lose sleep for them. If you give them things they do not deserve they will lose respect for you instantly. Then you're doomed and they'll never like you.

Of course, that's not quite the answer I'm looking for, but apparently it's pretty close. I've spent so much time just giving of myself that if anyone asks something of me and I don't comply I can't help but feel guilty, no matter how trivial or extreme the request. And, of course, no matter how apologetic they are or how many times they say "you don't have to do it" I make myself feel obligated and I try as hard as possible to see to it they don't feel guilty for asking of me.

You're going to have to do some reprogramming. The self-messages such as, "I am obligated to do this," and "This is not an unreasonable request," will have to change to "I am not obligated to do this," and "This is an unreasonable request." You will simply have to do this on your own. If you need help with some of the reprogramming you can send me a PM every once in a while.

As well they shouldn't, it's my own damn fault and I need to learn how to say no.

You are correct.

But I can't just go saying "no" to everything, or I become the asshole.

You need to redefine where the line is. Ahh yes, the fine line between what is reasonable and what is not. We can help you with that. Looks like you'll have to move the line quite a ways back.

Or at least, that's what it feels like. And that's definitely a road I don't want to go down. Lord knows I've considered it, even tried it a couple times, but I guess my conscience is more than just years of self-conditioning...that or the self-conditioning is a hell of a lot worse than I thought.

So, how does a guy recover from something like that?

Reconditioning. Reprogramming. Adjusting the fine line.

Obviously it starts with setting the boundary between being a doormat and just being helpful, but that's not quite as obvious a boundary for me as it is for most. Of course, plenty of it is obvious (even before this little revelation) but it's still not easy to turn down the chance to help someone.

I spent years building upon what I thought was the "ideal me", and now I have to tear it down and rebuild. Meanwhile, the resultant depression and loneliness wear away at my will to even try. No doubt it'll take twice as long to fix, if ever, because I embedded this mentality in myself during my most formative years, but I know I'll never be happy if it continues.

Sounds like you know what you gotta do. It's gonna be difficult but it must be done.

[Carnivale Ed]

Originally Posted by scarletpeaches

Unless you're the reincarnation of Stalin, of course. In which case it's no wonder you can't get a girlfriend.

I bet Stalin did okay. Don't even pretend power's not an aphrodesiac to you horrible, horrible women.

It's not you, Zikes, it's them!