A revolution in thought

[naturalist.atheist]

koan, I agree. This has not, in any sense of the word, been a conversation. It's been a bunch of people being amazed and incredulous that there are people that are batshit insane.

[Vivisectus]

I see no reason to assume PG is insane, and I really do not understand what you base that on. Or rather, if we are going to call her behavior insane then a lot of people on the more fundamentalist Christian message boards, 911-truther sites and homeopathy groups are also completely off their rocker.

I am not denying that you could make a case for just that: dogmatism that is held even though it requires a person to pretend reality is something it is not could indeed be called delusion. I am sure I suffer from it on occasion myself: no-one is without their own personal kind of bias.

But it is the height of arrogance and stupidity to simply call it mental illness based on what little we can see on this board, even if you were a trained mental health professional, which nobody here is.

Holding irrational beliefs and twisting arguments into weird mental origami and then pretending they are perfectly straightforward and rational is not necessarily insane behavior. Being presented evidence, hand-waving it away on a weak pretense, and then resuming to pretend there is no evidence is not (necessarily) the behavior of a nutcase. Bringing long-refuted arguments back into a discussion as if they were never refuted int he first place does not a mentalcase make.

It is not even uncommon behavior. There are thousands upon thousands of people like that. Throw a metaphorical stone in the internet and, unless you hit a picture of a kitten or some porn, you will probably hit one. The vast majority of them do just fine in their day-to-day life.

Peacegirl just has a strong need to believe that her father was this prophet-like figure, kind, wise and always right, that he discovered a way to cure all the worlds ills, and that the utopia he predicted will soon come to pass, if not in this lifetime then surely in the next.

Now if she adhered to a mainstream religion she could go and hang out on a religious board, share anecdotes about little miracles of faith that demonstrate how wonderful and correct their worldview is, commiserate life's setbacks and explain how somehow it will all be part of the deity's design to teach them some deep lesson in having even more faith, and perhaps indulge in a little light condescension at nonbelievers... naturally all in the name of concern, and mentioned only because these people would be so much happier if only they saw the light. It is a perfect set-up: they get along because they share a world-view, and feel their world-view must be really good and correct because it makes people get along so well.

The problem with being part of a one-woman religious movement or spiritual-philosophical belief is that you do not get such outlets. However, finding some place where your world-view is at least discussed can be the next best thing, even if the discussion tends to focus on pointing out how silly it is. You then get to be the champion and the martyr, and pretend that since people are at least discussing it, it is somehow relevant. It is especially good if you imagine it all from the perspective of future readers, who will all be convinced Lessanites, and who will look back in wonder at how the lone voice of the prophetess of reason battled the unbelievers without ever letting up.

Sure, it is a fantasy world, a little escape from daily life. Most message boards disappear after a few years, and when that happens not a trace of all these discussions will remain. But as far as I can see the only harm that could possibly be caused by this discussion is some wasted time. And hey, if the make-believe makes her feel good, why call the time wasted even?

I am concerned sometimes when I think of the unscrupulous publishers, web-designers and "sound-technicians" that seem to have taken advantage of her so far, and I hope that PG will hold on to her savings from now on. But then again, when I think of the millions of poor elderly victims of televangelists, I really do not see how we can call her insane without carting a significant portion of the US population off into mental asylums.

So I think we should probably put that particular one to bed. I agree that PG says crazy things and plenty of them but I think we should stop calling her insane. It is not right to pretend to be able to diagnose mental illnesses, unless it is more or less a throwaway comment meant to say something about someone'e behavior.

[naturalist.atheist]

The brain is an organ. It is what humans primarily use to reason, observe, learn and react. If it doesn't function to some minimum acceptable level in any of those areas, we consider it to be broken. When an organ is broken we say there is an illness. We apply this standard to any limb, any sense, any organ function. The brain is no exception. Now I would agree with you that any particular diagnosis may not be applicable. Simply because it might be obvious that a person cannot see, does not automatically imply it is a particular kind of vision illness, like say glaucoma. However the brain's functions are in some sense reflected by the behavior of the animal with that brain, and if the animal has trouble remembering, is obsessed with a single topic, does not process new information very well, deliberately ignores conflicting information, goes through the same evolution of reasoning and then "resets" and does this continuously. It does rule out a number of illnesses and suggests certain illnesses.

Now I am not a mental health professional, nor a medical professional. So I will freely admit that you should not blindly agree with me about peacegirls illness. Make up your own mind. But, you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

[Dragar]

You're on the verge (likely over it) of defining large chunks of the population as mentally ill, NA. I don't think you intend to do that. Maybe you do.

[naturalist.atheist]

It is not my intention to diagnose entire populations, however it is not unheard of for large swaths of a population to be ill with the same illness. Certainly during epidemics that is the case. It is not common to think of epidemics of mental illness, but I see no reason to rule it out.

Be that as it may, I don't see what ails peacegirl to be very common. Parts of it maybe, but not all symptoms taken together.

[Vivisectus]

Originally Posted by naturalist.atheist

The brain is an organ. It is what humans primarily use to reason, observe, learn and react. If it doesn't function to some minimum acceptable level in any of those areas, we consider it to be broken. When an organ is broken we say there is an illness. We apply this standard to any limb, any sense, any organ function. The brain is no exception. Now I would agree with you that any particular diagnosis may not be applicable. Simply because it might be obvious that a person cannot see, does not automatically imply it is a particular kind of vision illness, like say glaucoma. However the brain's functions are in some sense reflected by the behavior of the animal with that brain, and if the animal has trouble remembering, is obsessed with a single topic, does not process new information very well, deliberately ignores conflicting information, goes through the same evolution of reasoning and then "resets" and does this continuously. It does rule out a number of illnesses and suggests certain illnesses.

Now I am not a mental health professional, nor a medical professional. So I will freely admit that you should not blindly agree with me about peacegirls illness. Make up your own mind. But, you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

I agree that she is far from rational. But being irrational does not make someone mentally ill, nor is the definition for it you seem to propose the generally accepted one for mental illness. It is a convenient one you just made up and that potentially allows you to label anyone with ideas you do not like as mentally ill: you could simply state they came to the conclusion they came because their reasoning, observation and reaction is below what you deem an "acceptable level".

As for

has trouble remembering, is obsessed with a single topic, does not process new information very well, deliberately ignores conflicting information, goes through the same evolution of reasoning and then "resets" and does this continuously.

There must be a veritable epidemic going on. Flat earthers (Yeah, they are real. I heartily recommend looking them up. They are truly hilarious), moonlanding truthers, 911-truthers, Aids-deniers, fundamentalist christians, people who believe jews secretly rule the world, anti-vaccination activists, homeopathy adherents.... they all do it to some extent. Many of them all at once, and to the same extent as PG does, although most of them seek out fellow believers and leave when challenged too much. As I pointed out this is not an option for PG: so she chooses the next best thing, which is here.

These people are not all mentally ill. They just hold irrational beliefs, and they use irrational methods of reasoning (or refuse to reason altogether) to hold on to those beliefs. I am sure I do that myself to some extend, just like you probably do.

But having beliefs which you feel are irrational, or displaying odd strategies to rationalize those irrational beliefs, does not make someone mentally ill.

[naturalist.atheist]

I understand that there are certain levels of memory, reasoning and observation errors that are tolerated and considered to be within "normal" bounds. And perhaps many of the conspiracy and religious devotees are defined to be within those "normal" bounds. Over my long life I have come into contact with a number of people who could be said to fit that description. But peacegirl is way beyond that boundary. FF is freely available to any of those people who could be classified as extreme but just within normal bounds. And FF has had its fair share of such visitors. But in my recollection there have been none like peacegirl. She is the extreme that is over the edge of normal. Not even Iacchus was as consistently dysfunctional as peacegirl.

To add to that, there is almost two years of data on FF and at least seven more years of data on other forums. It's not that peacegirl has unusual ideas, it is the long term consistency of those ideas even after the onslaught posters rubbing her entire body in those inconsistencies by breaking them down to the simplest possible terms. In many ways she is like this poor woman but her problem appears to be permanent.

It's Tuesday! (Transient Global Amnesia) - YouTube

[Vivisectus]

How is she outside of those bounds and what are those bounds exactly?

[Spacemonkey]

Apparently we all have slightly differing concepts of what constitutes mental illness. There's nothing wrong with that, and the boundary between normal and deranged is hardly a sharp or easily defined one. I don't know if Peacegirl is clinically diagnosable in terms of the DSM-IV etc, but I don't think there can be any doubt that she displays abnormal and persistent cognitive dysfunction, and this is what I mean when I say she is mentally ill and would benefit from treatment.

[naturalist.atheist]

I would go further and add obsessive compulsion and memory dysfunction. Although the memory dysfunction might simply be early dementia. It would appear though that peacegirls consistency has some people thinking that she is your standard fringe nut case and not necessarily mentally ill. But my guess is that she has been diagnosed as mentally ill, which would explain her great sensitivity to the suggestion that she is mentally ill. However unless you are a danger to others or yourself most people with mental illness go largely untreated. Especially if there is no one who pushes to get them treated. I suspect that other than occasional lip service, peacegirl is largely ignored by her family.

In any case what should peacegirl expect? To go on like this for over a decade, behaving in exactly the same way against complete and utter rejection. Unable to present any evidence other than her dad's awful book and her adoration of him and his writings.

That is not sane.

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

How is she outside of those bounds and what are those bounds exactly?

As I said, I'm not a mental health professional, so all I can do is rely on my on experience. In my experience she is well outside the bounds of normal crack pottery. She is crazy.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

I see no reason to assume PG is insane, and I really do not understand what you base that on. Or rather, if we are going to call her behavior insane then a lot of people on the more fundamentalist Christian message boards, 911-truther sites and homeopathy groups are also completely off their rocker.

I am not denying that you could make a case for just that: dogmatism that is held even though it requires a person to pretend reality is something it is not could indeed be called delusion. I am sure I suffer from it on occasion myself: no-one is without their own personal kind of bias.

But it is the height of arrogance and stupidity to simply call it mental illness based on what little we can see on this board, even if you were a trained mental health professional, which nobody here is.

Holding irrational beliefs and twisting arguments into weird mental origami and then pretending they are perfectly straightforward and rational is not necessarily insane behavior. Being presented evidence, hand-waving it away on a weak pretense, and then resuming to pretend there is no evidence is not (necessarily) the behavior of a nutcase. Bringing long-refuted arguments back into a discussion as if they were never refuted int he first place does not a mentalcase make.

It is not even uncommon behavior. There are thousands upon thousands of people like that. Throw a metaphorical stone in the internet and, unless you hit a picture of a kitten or some porn, you will probably hit one. The vast majority of them do just fine in their day-to-day life.

Peacegirl just has a strong need to believe that her father was this prophet-like figure, kind, wise and always right, that he discovered a way to cure all the worlds ills, and that the utopia he predicted will soon come to pass, if not in this lifetime then surely in the next.

Now if she adhered to a mainstream religion she could go and hang out on a religious board, share anecdotes about little miracles of faith that demonstrate how wonderful and correct their worldview is, commiserate life's setbacks and explain how somehow it will all be part of the deity's design to teach them some deep lesson in having even more faith, and perhaps indulge in a little light condescension at nonbelievers... naturally all in the name of concern, and mentioned only because these people would be so much happier if only they saw the light. It is a perfect set-up: they get along because they share a world-view, and feel their world-view must be really good and correct because it makes people get along so well.

The problem with being part of a one-woman religious movement or spiritual-philosophical belief is that you do not get such outlets. However, finding some place where your world-view is at least discussed can be the next best thing, even if the discussion tends to focus on pointing out how silly it is. You then get to be the champion and the martyr, and pretend that since people are at least discussing it, it is somehow relevant. It is especially good if you imagine it all from the perspective of future readers, who will all be convinced Lessanites, and who will look back in wonder at how the lone voice of the prophetess of reason battled the unbelievers without ever letting up.

Sure, it is a fantasy world, a little escape from daily life. Most message boards disappear after a few years, and when that happens not a trace of all these discussions will remain. But as far as I can see the only harm that could possibly be caused by this discussion is some wasted time. And hey, if the make-believe makes her feel good, why call the time wasted even?

I am concerned sometimes when I think of the unscrupulous publishers, web-designers and "sound-technicians" that seem to have taken advantage of her so far, and I hope that PG will hold on to her savings from now on. But then again, when I think of the millions of poor elderly victims of televangelists, I really do not see how we can call her insane without carting a significant portion of the US population off into mental asylums.

So I think we should probably put that particular one to bed. I agree that PG says crazy things and plenty of them but I think we should stop calling her insane. It is not right to pretend to be able to diagnose mental illnesses, unless it is more or less a throwaway comment meant to say something about someone'e behavior.

I disagreed with a lot of this post and was ready to slam you one Vivisectus, and then you say something nice. I suddenly change my whole demeanor. When I read what you wrote in the end of this post (not the beginning) I melted in your arms. Thank you for at least recognizing that I'm not crazy, and for telling it like it is. Koan's diagnosis of me is ridiculous (completely and utterly unfounded). The things people say against me gives me goosebumps.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by naturalist.atheist

I understand that there are certain levels of memory, reasoning and observation errors that are tolerated and considered to be within "normal" bounds. And perhaps many of the conspiracy and religious devotees are defined to be within those "normal" bounds. Over my long life I have come into contact with a number of people who could be said to fit that description. But peacegirl is way beyond that boundary. FF is freely available to any of those people who could be classified as extreme but just within normal bounds. And FF has had its fair share of such visitors. But in my recollection there have been none like peacegirl. She is the extreme that is over the edge of normal. Not even Iacchus was as consistently dysfunctional as peacegirl.

To add to that, there is almost two years of data on FF and at least seven more years of data on other forums. It's not that peacegirl has unusual ideas, it is the long term consistency of those ideas even after the onslaught posters rubbing her entire body in those inconsistencies by breaking them down to the simplest possible terms. In many ways she is like this poor woman but her problem appears to be permanent.

It's Tuesday! (Transient Global Amnesia) - YouTube

It just proves that I know Lessans was right, and one day I will stand in redemption. I would never say I told you so, but I would want to so darn bad after what I've been through.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by naturalist.atheist

The brain is an organ. It is what humans primarily use to reason, observe, learn and react. If it doesn't function to some minimum acceptable level in any of those areas, we consider it to be broken. When an organ is broken we say there is an illness. We apply this standard to any limb, any sense, any organ function. The brain is no exception. Now I would agree with you that any particular diagnosis may not be applicable. Simply because it might be obvious that a person cannot see, does not automatically imply it is a particular kind of vision illness, like say glaucoma. However the brain's functions are in some sense reflected by the behavior of the animal with that brain, and if the animal has trouble remembering, is obsessed with a single topic, does not process new information very well, deliberately ignores conflicting information, goes through the same evolution of reasoning and then "resets" and does this continuously. It does rule out a number of illnesses and suggests certain illnesses.

STOP VIVISECTUS RIGHT HERE! You are presupposing the very thing you are arguing against and then supporting them again. Make up your mind bro. You are now setting yourself up as the ultimate scholar. I beg to differ. So when you say I am ignoring conflicting information, yes I am, because you are not the ultimate judge of what is right and what is not. How arrogant you are Vivisectus. I retract my last statement. I think you are a very sneaky guy.

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

Now I am not a mental health professional, nor a medical professional. So I will freely admit that you should not blindly agree with me about peacegirls illness. Make up your own mind. But, you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Agree with you? Oh my god, now you are the diagnostician here? What has this thread come to? I don't get it.

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

I agree that she is far from rational. But being irrational does not make someone mentally ill, nor is the definition for it you seem to propose the generally accepted one for mental illness. It is a convenient one you just made up and that potentially allows you to label anyone with ideas you do not like as mentally ill: you could simply state they came to the conclusion they came because their reasoning, observation and reaction is below what you deem an "acceptable level".

I feel like screaming right now. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING VIVISECTUS. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?

Originally Posted by Vivisectus"

As for

Why am I obsessed with a single topic? BECAUSE IT CAN HEAL MANKIND. IS THERE ANYTHING MORE IMPORTANT? YOU ARE FALSELY ACCUSING ME OF THINGS I AM NOT, AND I SO RESENT IT, BUT I WILL BE REDEEMED ONE DAY.

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

There must be a veritable epidemic going on. Flat earthers (Yeah, they are real. I heartily recommend looking them up. They are truly hilarious), moonlanding truthers, 911-truthers, Aids-deniers, fundamentalist christians, people who believe jews secretly rule the world, anti-vaccination activists, homeopathy adherents.... they all do it to some extent. Many of them all at once, and to the same extent as PG does, although most of them seek out fellow believers and leave when challenged too much. As I pointed out this is not an option for PG: so she chooses the next best thing, which is here.

No, it's not that I can't leave. It's that I'm so strong in my knowledge that you or anyone else will not chase me away. I will go, but not because I run away with my tail between my legs. Far from it.

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

These people are not all mentally ill. They just hold irrational beliefs, and they use irrational methods of reasoning (or refuse to reason altogether) to hold on to those beliefs. I am sure I do that myself to some extend, just like you probably do.

Look how disrespectful you are. THESE PEOPLE???? People are human beings, we don't separate them by their backgrounds, that is, if you are at all enlightened, which you appear not to be.

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

But having beliefs which you feel are irrational, or displaying odd strategies to rationalize those irrational beliefs, does not make someone mentally ill.

It is you who is filled with rationalizations. You are the one that has the problem, along with koan and many others. Who ends up in the loony bin is yet to be determined.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

It just proves that I know Lessans was right, and one day I will stand in redemption. I would never say I told you so, but I would want to so darn bad after what I've been through.

What you've been through has been of your own making. You've not been forced to start these discussions, or have these discussions, or continue these discussions.

The most pertinent part of Vivisectus' post is this

However, finding some place where your world-view is at least discussed can be the next best thing, even if the discussion tends to focus on pointing out how silly it is. You then get to be the champion and the martyr, and pretend that since people are at least discussing it, it is somehow relevant. It is especially good if you imagine it all from the perspective of future readers, who will all be convinced Lessanites, and who will look back in wonder at how the lone voice of the prophetess of reason battled the unbelievers without ever letting up.

[LadyShea]

You messed up the quote tags. You have attributed naturalist atheists words to Vivisectus

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

What you've been through has been of your own making. You've not been forced to start these discussions, or have these discussions, or continue these discussions.

The most pertinent part of Vivisectus' post is this

Of course my being here is my own making, but that does not mean I am wrong just because the few people who have interacted with me think they're right. This is not proof LadyShea, and aren't you all about proof? I feel sad for you because I know how hard you are searching, and you've missed the boat. You will never find a discovery that can change our world as this one. So you'll go about testing certain theories, and think you have it down pat. But you don't. You're not all that. I don't mean this derogatorily. I just wish you would let go a little bit. I actually put the first three chapters on my website. I hope you read them again. I can't go on in a forum that blacklists me as unfairly as this group has done.

[LadyShea]

Nope, it doesn't mean you're wrong, it means your whining about "what you've been through" is ridiculous.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I can't go on in a forum that blacklists me as negatively as this group has done.

[Spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

None of this is what I am asking about. And of course I don't get it. I don't get where these photons at the retina came from or how they got to be at the retina. The reason I don't get this is that you keep refusing to tell me or answer any of my questions about it.

Did the photons which are at the retina (at 12:00 when the Sun is first ignited) come from the Sun? [Yes or No]

Were they ever located at the Sun? [Yes or No]

If so, when were they located at the Sun? [State a time relative to the moment of ignition of the Sun]

If not, where did they come from? [State a physical object or location]

Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

If the photons at the retina at 12:00 were already emitted by the Sun, then when were they so emitted?

If before 12:00 then you have the Sun emitting photons before it is ignited, which is a contradiction in terms.

If at 12:00 then you have them in two places at once - both at the retina and at the surface of the Sun where they are being emitted.

This is not merely some minor technical problem with your account. It shows the whole idea to be plainly impossible. And for years now you have not made any attempt at all to resolve it.

Bump.

[Spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

STOP VIVISECTUS RIGHT HERE!

That wasn't even Vivesectus you were replying to.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I can't go on in a forum that blacklists me as unfairly as this group has done.

So why have you started posting here again?

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

So why have you started posting here again?

Any port in a storm.

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Of course my being here is my own making, but that does not mean I am wrong just because the few people who have interacted with me think they're right. This is not proof LadyShea, and aren't you all about proof? I feel sad for you because I know how hard you are searching, and you've missed the boat. You will never find a discovery that can change our world as this one. So you'll go about testing certain theories, and think you have it down pat. But you don't. You're not all that. I don't mean this derogatorily. I just wish you would let go a little bit. I actually put the first three chapters on my website. I hope you read them again. I can't go on in a forum that blacklists me as unfairly as this group has done.

peacegirl, you must know by now that there is no blacklist here. It's all you.

Get help.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

Bump.

I have made many attempts, and just because you don't comprehend what I'm saying, you shift the blame to me by calling me mentally ill. Do you think that's fair play?

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by naturalist.atheist

peacegirl, you must know by now that there is no blacklist here. It's all you.

Get help.

Oh shut up NA. I wish people were banned. You would be the first to go. It is you who doesn't let up. Talk about consistency. You win the prize of being the most obnoxious poster on this thread.