What Is Harassment?

[xyza]

I think Carnivale Ed has made the best contribution (as well as most sensible) to this thread so far.

Although, I agree with Moose that this thread would be the most off putting to new members.

[viscousmemories]

Thanks for your input, Carnivale Ed.

For the record we have installed a number of custom ignore features not found in the default vBulletin software, such as the ability to ignore individual avatars and signatures, posts and threads in addition to specific members. All of this is explained in detail on the Ignore Features page, accessible from the "Site Info" menu at the top of your screen.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Carlos

This is a complete mischaracterization of my reply to you.
I presented the evidence of your mistakes in your claim that Latinijral's posts didn't have any substance and relevance to the threads he was posting on.

I apologize, I didn't mean to mischaracterize your reply. What I meant is that 'substance' and 'relevance' are subjective assessments about which reasonable people can disagree. Since we already established (in your previous thread) that your assessment of latin's posts differs from our own, there doesn't seem to be any point debating the specifics of each post.

For better or worse when it comes to deciding what is and isn't acceptable behavior here it comes down to livius' and my judgement, not yours or anyone else's.

Originally Posted by Carlos

I am aware that you made it explicit on an additional disclaimer in your rules AFTER you banned Latinijral.

Right, that's what I said. We always had the implicit right (as the owners of the software and lessees of the hosting service), but we decided to make it explicit after we banned latinijral.

I am aware also that you wrote the following two days before banning Latinijral on a thread with this insulting title :"why we should all ignore the cocksucker" , created at this Administrative Forum :
"but I assure you we will not be banning anyone here who hasn't violated our written rules as they are today no matter how many members request (or demand) that we do."
http://www.freethought-forum.com/for...5&postcount=71

If that quote of yours doesn't reflexs the policy of this forum on past or present , please enlight me.
If you banned Latinijral who didn't violated your written rules , why you wrote it and made it public?
Don't you see a contradiction on your banning action and what you wrote?
Are you aware that is the same double speech other forums have?

That quote of mine accurately reflected the policy of this forum when I wrote it. Not too long after I wrote it, we changed the policy. Of course a change in policy is going to create contradictions between our present reality and previous statements on the topic. Any charge of intentional dishonesty or "double speech" (which implies intentional dishonesty) is simply false.

[Carlos]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I apologize, I didn't mean to mischaracterize your reply. What I meant is that 'substance' and 'relevance' are subjective assessments about which reasonable people can disagree. Since we already established (in your previous thread) that your assessment of latin's posts differs from our own, there doesn't seem to be any point debating the specifics of each post.

For better or worse when it comes to deciding what is and isn't acceptable behavior here it comes down to livius' and my judgement, not yours or anyone else's.

I am not discussing about your judgement of what it is or not acceptable behavior now or in the past.

I am discussing about your claim that Latinijral's posts were only insults and didn't have any substance and relevance to the threads he was posting on.

I put you again the same example. The most "offensive" post of Latinjral (even to Justaman ( a troll? )as he remarked); according to many of you was the one he did to Ex Zombie :
http://www.freethought-forum.com/for...4&postcount=24

This is what you wrote about the same post two days before you banned him:
"You're right, that's unbelievably offensive to me too. What it isn't is indisputable evidence of his intentions. Maybe that's his idea of "tough love". A way of cutting the bullshit and digging right in to the meat of the matter. Believe it or not I have met a lot of people who would think so. What some call blunt honesty others call abusive. How can I tell the difference with any degree of certainty? "
http://www.freethought-forum.com/for...&postcount=107

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Right, that's what I said. We always had the implicit right (as the owners of the software and lessees of the hosting service), but we decided to make it explicit after we banned latinijral.

That means that when Latinijral signed to join FF he accepted the rules that didn't have that explicit remark.

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

That quote of mine accurately reflected the policy of this forum when I wrote it. Not too long after I wrote it, we changed the policy. Of course a change in policy is going to create contradictions between our present reality and previous statements on the topic. Any charge of intentional dishonesty or "double speech" (which implies intentional dishonesty) is simply false.

If you changed your policy AFTER banning latinijral , and not before you did it , it is a dishonesty , a double speech and a dictatorship.
You changed to a policy of arbitrarily banning people because of the way they think and their style to express what they think.
Of what philosophy of Freethinking you are shouting?

You did the same mistakes other forums did when they banned Latinijral.
You make the same mistakes you never wanted to do.
"Liv and I are members of three other forums that latinijral has been banned from, and in all three cases rules had to be bent or created to justify the banning. And we decided at the outset that we will not compromise our own principles without a sound justification for it. And the obvious fact that he's a troll and/or an asshole isn't that."


You compromised your own principles ! Worst: you compromised the principles of FF.

I don't know what is worst, to be consider a troll /asshole or a coward /liar as Latinjral considered you.

Let me tell you that I prefer a blunt honesty rather than hyperbolic , semantic discussions or excuses that pretends to mascarade the errors.

Thanks,
Carlos

[Dingfod]

Why is latinijral arguing over the banning of latinijral?

[Sock Puppet]

Honestly, why should anybody give a flying fuck? It's a message board, and the policies that govern it shouldn't have to be held to strict Constitutional standards. If the admins say they're doing their best, it's either good enough for you or it isn't. If it isn't, there's an easy way to get the fuck over it: find a board you like better.

If I ever run a message board (not likely), I'll preempt all of this legalistic blather by declaring it a dictatorship from the outset. I'll say something like, "I'll do my best to be patient, but if you irritate me too much, I'll just ban your ass."

[wei yau]

Originally Posted by Sock Puppet

If the admins say they're doing their best, it's either good enough for you or it isn't. If it isn't, there's an easy way to get the fuck over it: find a board you like better.

Couldn't agree with this more.

I'd even go so far as to caution the admins about getting involved with this type of legalistic, pseudo-principled bullshit. It's your forum, do what you will. I, for one, trust and respect your decisions. Should that ever change, I'll either cope or leave.

[Carlos]

Originally Posted by Sock Puppet

If I ever run a message board (not likely), I'll preempt all of this legalistic blather by declaring it a dictatorship from the outset. I'll say something like, "I'll do my best to be patient, but if you irritate me too much, I'll just ban your ass."

That is honesty , you are declaring an easy piss off dictatorship.

But don't come with the bullshit promotion of :"think what you like and say what you think", etc, , etc,

Thanks,
Carlos

[Carlos]

Originally Posted by Warren

Why is latinijral arguing over the banning of latinijral?

Because you have him on ignore.

Thanks,
Carlos

[Dingfod]

I can't read what you've written because I've got latinirjal on Ignore.

[xyza]

This little bit between Warren and Carlos for some reason has relly tickled me

Please ignore me I am slowly going crazy.

[Dingfod]

I'm glad you're amused.

[Leesifer]

Originally Posted by eldar

Couldn't agree with this more.

I'd even go so far as to caution the admins about getting involved with this type of legalistic, pseudo-principled bullshit. It's your forum, do what you will. I, for one, trust and respect your decisions. Should that ever change, I'll either cope or leave.

Totally seconded.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by Miss Shelby

You really do retain this stuff for a long time Sweetie. The only thing that I can remember about the Virgin Mary Underpass thread is that someone posted a picture of a vagina in it.

Michelle

I guess I was thinking of the "What's It Going to Take" thread which directly followed or preceeded the Virgin Mary Underpass one.

Oddly enough, what's it going to take for us to have fair-discussions? Firstly, fair-minded people which most aren't, and secondly, no deep discussions ultimately.

Only degenerating into humour is workable, I guess, since so many do it and all problems then magically disappear. Oblivious.

http://www.freethought-forum.com/for...onlybyuserid=0

I found it to be a bit of stretch that you remember learning how to walk. That's all. I am not sure why my comment about that instigated your in depth and somewhat off the wall explanation but that is okay.

I didn't walk until I was one and a half, and yes I can remember some snapshots of the experience. Confusion mostly. Mom took me to the doctor to see if anything was physically impeding my ability to walk, he said it was just my brain......too busy observing and studying everything and all the life around me to bother getting involved with it myself. Mom's words, not mine.

What prompted my original response and it's depth was:

a) pre-emptive defense ust in case you were being insulting. I tend to jump the gun because I'm thinking a few steps ahead, for the record.
b) not sure why you bothered noting it in the first place. Not sure where you fit in.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by MooseIBe

This is like watching a slow motion car-wreck and I am simply not going to bother after this post.

Right, well you've only insulted me and dismissed my concerns and expressed annoyance since the start, so I'm sure I'll miss all that helpful advice, consideration, and fair-mindedness.

Sweetie, your arguments are incoherent to the point of ludicrousy.

Right.

What does it matter what your earliest memory is?

When someone accuses me of taking notes on them, as if I had a notebook and wrote down everything they do, and I respond with I simply have a good memory, here's some examples.......see, it's a logical thought progression.

What does it matter how many people have done drugs on this site?

When I claim someone is a hypocrite who insinuates another is a rapist because he had sex with someone who had been drinking, as if no one here has, it's a rather thorough insult that could touch almost anyone, because their own actions and behavior can also be seen in the same light, then there is a logical thought progression.

What does ANY of this have to do with your OP?

Harassment was my OP. TomJoe figured he should accuse me of harassment. D. Scarlatti is guilty of harassment.

You're your own worst enemy. I actually felt sorry for you for a while way back when, before I realised that you facilitate all the 'abuse' you've received. A shrink could have an entire convention based around you.

Right. Noted.

It would be helpful if you read all the relevant and pertinent threads, thoughts, posts, etc, in order to be a good judge of the subject.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by xyza

I think Carnivale Ed has made the best contribution (as well as most sensible) to this thread so far.

Although, I agree with Moose that this thread would be the most off putting to new members.

I think the following one would be, but you or Moose have been here a few of the sixteen or so months this place has been here, so I'm sure you are one of the best judges of the subject:

http://www.freethought-forum.com/for...8427#post78427

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by Miss Shelby

I really don't know which might be apt to turn more people off. But it seems to me that Sweeties main complaint is that she was being verbally abused by Adora. My observation, which may be limited as I do not view alot of threads here, is that Adora has subsided considerably in even interacting with Sweetie. So, I would say at this point, she has nothing more to complain about. That is just my opinion for what it is worth.

Michelle

My point has been that Adora not only consistently harasses me, but she harasses newbies and has harassed them to the point of leaving. Many, many people have had to have her on ignore, a few have suggested that she be banned, and her case is similar enough to the case of latinjral that I think it requires attention. I have started a case to that effect, mapping it out in a few threads which I had started to put in the Goodbye thread. You may refer back if you want to be better informed.

I have actually said that were Adora to stop harassing me, I not only would have remained a non-poster, I would not be arguing now. Unfortunately, I don't know what goes on with her as far as this goes.

[Leesifer]

Sweetie, how about you just spell it out in black and white now. What exactly is it that you want from this thread? Or indeed from this forum?

Do you have any actual proposals for an anti-harassment policy or not?

You can also see that there have been a few new joiners here since your set to with Adora and they have stayed. There's even been a new joiner because of the "goodbye" thread, which disproves your sticking up for the new joiner theory really, doesn't it.

[D. Scarlatti]

If I'm not mistaken, Adora has barely addressed Sweetie in ages. Now Sweetie, amid the usual lies, neurotic self-aggrandizement, and sweeping insults, is practically begging for it.

It's difficult to even find this amusing anymore.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by Leesifer

Sweetie, how about you just spell it out in black and white now. What exactly is it that you want from this thread? Or indeed from this forum?

Since I have already stated it in a thread where you were arguing with me about stuff, since I can assume you actually read what I write if you feel you should respond to me, and since it's still there for you to recheck so I don't have to keep repeating myself, I say........why don't you tell me what I'm about?

Do you have any actual proposals for an anti-harassment policy or not?

Since I have already stated to maddog and others a few times, since you read what I write if you feel you should respond to me, you should know that the topic of this thread is what harassment is. What do you think it should be defined as? We can't really propose anything until we can define the problem, or even identify if there is or is not a problem. I have already stated what I think harassment is.

You can also see that there have been a few new joiners here since your set to with Adora and they have stayed.

I'm not sure the relevance. Since I originally left, Adora's harassment has been less. She degenerated again, she's alright for the moment. She harasses those people she takes a dislike to, those who disagree with her about things, etc. It doesn't change that she has harassed in the past, and that she may in the future. Doesn't mean that she also doesn't pick her victims. I started setting about showing this in the other thread. Did you read my posts, did you follow the links?

There's even been a new joiner because of the "goodbye" thread, which disproves your sticking up for the new joiner theory really, doesn't it.

I don't follow. I'm sure that Adora doesn't attack all newbies, nor would she have time to. That's not my claim.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by D. Scarlatti

If I'm not mistaken, Adora has barely addressed Sweetie in ages. Now Sweetie, amid the usual lies, neurotic self-aggrandizement, and sweeping insults, is practically begging for it.

It's difficult to even find this amusing anymore.

Dude, I have no idea why nobody notices the fact that you just post accusations and walk away.

Adora insinuated something about me in this very thread and yes, she has been better behaved. She's like a three year old who knows when she's under scrutiny. You think she's stupid? How insulting to her.

Lies, neurosis, sweeping insults. Be more specific. You know any specific claim I will deal with from you so why don't we just do this and be done? Give evidence, we are no so foolish as you believe us to be. Maybe you can become the main example of what harassment is to this forum although yours is a more insidious form. Adora is at least more honest about it.

[Sweetie]

And in the end, this is about what the admins have to say and that have pretty much remained silent which some of you argue is the best thing. I'm really not sure why. It's up to them what they consider relevant, what they will consider, what they won't. How am I supposed to know what will convince them, they aren't a court of law, they weren't appointed because they were the best judges, they own the place, it's their house, their rules, their friends. There's no jury, nothing. It's them and only them and them are not participating, at least on my issue. They're more concerned with Carlos apparently.

[D. Scarlatti]

That's right. Even you are allowed to defecate on everything and everyone.

[Leesifer]

Originally Posted by Sweetie

Since I have already stated it in a thread where you were arguing with me about stuff, since I can assume you actually read what I write if you feel you should respond to me, and since it's still there for you to recheck so I don't have to keep repeating myself, I say........why don't you tell me what I'm about?

Since I have already stated to maddog and others a few times, since you read what I write if you feel you should respond to me, you should know that the topic of this thread is what harassment is. What do you think it should be defined as? We can't really propose anything until we can define the problem, or even identify if there is or is not a problem. I have already stated what I think harassment is.

I'm not sure the relevance. Since I originally left, Adora's harassment has been less. She degenerated again, she's alright for the moment. She harasses those people she takes a dislike to, those who disagree with her about things, etc. It doesn't change that she has harassed in the past, and that she may in the future. Doesn't mean that she also doesn't pick her victims. I started setting about showing this in the other thread. Did you read my posts, did you follow the links?

I don't follow. I'm sure that Adora doesn't attack all newbies, nor would she have time to. That's not my claim.

Oh, Sweetie, Sweetie, Sweetie, I do look briefly at your links but they are mainly aimed at Adora having a pop at either you or Alex Bragi.

I can't really tell you what you are about except for all the things you've told us - you are super-intelligent, have a near photographic memory, stick up for newbies before they even join, think most women are total bitches and have breast fed about 500 children.

I have also seen you enjoying yourself on other threads as well lately, so there.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by D. Scarlatti

That's right. Even you are allowed to defecate on everything and everyone.

Right, I just randomly pick people to shit on. Of course, I've never been shit on, lied to, treated like dirt I'm quite sure. Not by you even, ever. I've not been lied about, I've not had to deal with liars who will try and spin anything to make them look like a hero no matter what. Everybody has integrity, etc.

Good ignore job, bucko. So many of you proclaim it, so many claim to use it, so few apparently do. Wonder why, it works so apparently well, all problems disappear wherever it is employed. Why didn't I think of it first, coulda made a million, I'm sure, those who created it understand human nature so very well.