A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

[LadyShea]

Did you mean afferent NA?

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Did you mean afferent NA?

yes.

[But]

Originally Posted by Dragar

I'll have to take a look. I remember a throwaway line from Sidney Coleman, along the lines that Everett had opened the door to non-wavefunction collapse interpretations, but everyone else had taken that horse and galloped off in different directions (whee, mixed metaphors!). It would be interesting to see Everett's original thoughts.

Take a look at "Everett long thesis with handwritten corrections 1956-1973". It's all in there. Now available on the internet, reconstructed from the stuff he left in his basement after his ash was thrown into the trash.



It still isn't quite finished. BTW, I have some ideas about the universal delta function. LOL.

(Page 29-30 is the real shocker.)

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

But that's just it: Thou Shalt Not Blame applies only before the act, not after. Lessans knew his own views regarding free will and determinism inside and out, but he also wrote that knowing human will is not free wouldn't prevent him from hitting someone who struck him first or from taking out an intruder who broke into his home. Thus, the actor can't "know" that he won't be retaliated against because that simply isn't true; he would be retaliated against because Thou Shalt Not Blame is inapplicable after the fact.

You were confused and you still are Maturin. When Lessans said he would defend his family if someone came into his home, he was referring to a first blow that has already taken place. The only way this type of behavior can occur is if there is justification for it. Lessans was only trying to show that the person who enters his home feels justified (he gave the 3 types of justification that could be used to justify this behavior), and he was also showing that he would be justified to strike back. You said that the actor can't "know" that he won't be retaliated against because that simply isn't true. Of course it's not true the way our penal system is set up right now. But what prevents the first blow from being struck is when he knows, once he becomes a citizen of the new world, by signing the agreement (which is only necessary during the transition), that no one will blame him for hurting them no matter what he does. He knows the recipient of this hurt will be compelled (of his own desire or will) to turn the other cheek.

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

I fail to see where the transformative power lies.

Because you didn't stick with it long enough to understand what you were missing. You assumed you were right and left it at that.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

That's why people must sign the agreement that during the transition, they will not blame anybody for anything, and will need to turn the other cheek, although the police will still be a presence in society until everyone has become a citizen of the new world.

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

I fail to see how signing on the proverbial dotted line is either necessary or sufficient to bring about the changes Lessans wrote of. If knowledge alone is enough, what does signing a contract add? And if it's true that Thou Shalt Not Blame applies only before the act, it seems to me that a written agreement not to blame or retaliate after the fact runs contrary to human nature as Lessans saw it.

That is a fair question, and I don't mind elaborating when there is sincere interest.

It actually doesn't run contrary to human nature if the hurt that justifies retaliation is removed.

The two-sided equation is explicitly revealed in
Chapter Two; the first blow is anything to gain at the expense of
others after the guarantee has been installed; the last form of first
blow reveals who has the right-of-way when desires conflict, which will
be explained in more detail shortly. If a person is incapable of passing
the exam, someone would have to assume responsibility for him in
order for this guarantee to be issued. There can be no punishment
should the new citizen break this agreement and not turn the other
cheek during this time of transition, but how is it possible for him to
break this or any agreement when he knows there will be no blame for
striking this first blow. This needs clarification.

When any agreement is made in the new world, the people who are
a party to it are saying, “I am satisfied with this agreement and will
never blame you should you violate it.” If you don’t want to become
a citizen of this new world, don’t want to receive this guarantee, don’t
want to agree never to blame, then you don’t have to sign this
agreement and will continue living in your present environment. But
should you sign this agreement, how is it possible for you to desire
breaking it by not turning the other cheek when turning the other
cheek offers greater satisfaction as this is the kind of punishment
those who strike a first blow cannot tolerate. The truck driver wanted
to be punished for doing what he knows was his responsibility because
this would give him greater satisfaction. As was explained in Chapter
Two, “The knowledge that there will be no consequences presents
consequences that are still worse, making it impossible to consider this
hurt as a preferable alternative.”

However, in order for the new citizen
not to be blamed by his government, and in order for his government
not to be blamed by the governments of other nations, the political
and military leaders of the world must become our first citizens. How
is it possible for political leaders to stop blaming other political leaders
and the people in their country unless the leaders have received the
guarantee and signed the agreement? Therefore, the world leaders
must take their examination first because it is only by the new citizen
knowing he will never be blamed by the government or the laws of his
country no matter what he does to hurt others that will prevent him
from desiring to do that for which punishment came into existence,
taking for granted, of course, that the other source of justification,
being made to go below his standard of living, has already been
removed. This will prevent the possibility of further wars because the
very people who have the power to start one will be stopped by the
guarantee which denies them any justification and by their realization
that there will be no retaliation by those who must turn the other
cheek for their satisfaction.

When the time arrives for the leaders of
the world to sign this agreement, which will be done simultaneously,
they will be extremely happy and anxious for this new world to begin.
But remember, ironically enough, under the changed conditions the
leaders are prevented from hurting others not because there will be no
retaliation, but primarily because they will get greater satisfaction in
being a part of this fantastic new world.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Blaming is a natural response to the human condition, but you are assuming that people will be hurt, for which blame would be necessary.

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

I'm not so much assuming that hurt will occur as saying that the factor that's supposed to keep hurt from occurring is chimerical if in fact Thou Shalt Not Blame is inapplicable after the fact.

We're talking about people who have become citizens of the new world. It can't apply to this world because the environmental conditions that would prevent this kind of hurt from occurring, haven't been established. People will know, well in advance, that should they hurt someone with a first blow, and they are also aware that the person to be hurt would be compelled to turn the other cheek, gives them no choice in the direction they are compelled to go -- which is to refrain from acting on any thought of taking advantage of someone for personal gain regardless of how trivial or serious the hurt to be performed happens to be. This is what prevents the first blow from being struck because conscience will not permit hurting someone knowing there will be no blame by anyone in the world (this is an important point), not just the person to be hurt. All justification to permit such an act would have been removed.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Ironically, it is the very knowledge that people will not blame no matter what is done to them which removes the justification to do that which is harmful.

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

Again, we don't know that. To the contrary, blame and retaliation are legitimate responses to hurtful acts per Lessans. Thus, I have every reason to believe that I'll be blamed if I do something hurtful, so the "justification" remains.

Yes they are legitimate responses in the world of blame and punishment where the knowledge that you will be sent to prison --- if deemed guilty by the courts --- is a very strong possibility. This is the advance justification that is necessary to do that very thing. But we're talking about a new world, a world in which everyone knows will is not free. The advance knowledge that no one will ever strike back, no matter what is done, prevents the desire to strike [a first blow] because there can be no satisfaction that can be gotten under the changed conditions.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

The signing of the contract is a necessary condition,

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

Why?

BTW, how did the birthday dinner go?

It is only a necessary condition during the Great Transition. Once the transition is complete, the Golden Age --- the age when all hurt (evil) between man and man is permanently removed --- will have arrived. There will be no more need for tags on our cars to distinguish the citizens from the non-citizens. This would only be necessary during the transition to let the police know which people are still be bound by the laws of their country. This means that the police force would be necessary in just proportion as the citizen population increases and the non-citizen population decreases. The citizens would be exempt from police control due to the fact that they would be controlled by a much higher law which would obviate the need for police intervention. You really need to read the economic chapter to get a thorough understanding. Just know that this is a stopgap measure to bridge the two worlds while the transition is in process.

[erimir]

I like how you just hop back in without acknowledging the four-year gap at all.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by erimir

I like how you just hop back in without acknowledging the four-year gap at all.

The timeline as to when the post was written is of no importance. In fact, if an editor was to go through the posts and keep only those that had relevance to the subject matter and no badmouthing, 99% of the posts would be deleted. I have recently been perusing some of the old posts (it would take me forever to go through all of them) to see where people may have misinterpreted something. I found a post that was very revealing. Unfortunately, as a result of this one misunderstanding the thread took a turn for the worse and has never recovered.

[ChuckF]

Oh my god there's another one.

[erimir]

Yeah, if not for that one post, everyone would've become acolytes of Lessans by now

The gap in replies is not important, it's just weird that you resurrect a thread from four years ago without acknowledging it in any way. It was not meant as an argument for or against anything. Just an observation of you being weird.

[Florence Jellem]

Do you boys mean to tell Flo that there is not just one, but two massive threads devoted to peacegirl's textual corruptions?

Are there any others?

Does need to hire an exterminator?

[Stephen Maturin]

Originally Posted by erimir

Yeah, if not for that one post, everyone would've become acolytes of Lessans by now

I don't think you understand the full extent of my power, erimir. That's OK and all, since I didn't even know myself until six years and a day ago.

See, it turns out that I am "in charge of all knowledge." I have the power to "ruin it for the world" via my "personal agenda," and I have exercised that formidable power to "ruin Lessans' discovery."

On top of everything else, I am "so jaded that [I] judge Vanilla Ice according you [sic] what [I] personally like or don't like."

It is truly impossible to overstate what a jerk I am.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

I don't think you understand the full extent of my power, erimir. That's OK and all, since I didn't even know myself until six years and a day ago.

See, it turns out that I am "in charge of all knowledge." I have the power to "ruin it for the world" via my "personal agenda," and I have exercised that formidable power to "ruin Lessans' discovery."

On top of everything else, I am "so jaded that [I] judge Vanilla Ice according you [sic] what [I] personally like or don't like."

It is truly impossible to overstate what a jerk I am.

You don't have the power to ruin Lessans' discovery, but because you thought you were right about blame, and because you are the most vocal here, this thread took a downturn. Can you admit that you misunderstood the two-sided equation? Never mind. I know what your answer will be.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by erimir

Yeah, if not for that one post, everyone would've become acolytes of Lessans by now

That one post had to do with the two-sided equation, which is the core of the discovery. Maturin thought he found a flaw, but he was mistaken. Unfortunately, people assumed he was right and the thread could not recover.

Originally Posted by erimir

The gap in replies is not important, it's just weird that you resurrect a thread from four years ago without acknowledging it in any way. It was not meant as an argument for or against anything. Just an observation of you being weird.

I didn't bring it up because it doesn't matter. As I said earlier, most of the posts are nothing more than namecalling. It could have been 10 years ago and it wouldn't have made a difference because my answers would be the same. This particular rebuttal was inaccurate and caused people to think that the two-sided equation was flawed. It is not flawed. I had asked Maturin to find it so I could show him where he was mistaken, but he wouldn't help me probably because he doesn't want to be wrong. I found it on my own. I didn't know the post would be shown as another thread.

[specious_reasons]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

You don't have the power to ruin Lessans' discovery, but because you thought you were right about blame, and because you are the most vocal here, this thread took a downturn. Can you admit that you misunderstood the two-sided equation? Never mind. I know what you're answer will be.

I don't think your narrative fits with how I remember it.

When you first started posting, I was pretty sure the book you were promoting was utter bullshit. The shit about eyes not being sense organs and glandular homosexuals was like the icing on the amusement cake. I only argued with you about vision to see how committed you were to your father's nonsense.

Once that got tiresome, I felt bad about myself for getting amusement by goading a clearly dysfunctional person to talk about their obsession.

[ChuckF]

Anyway, that was years before I, the True Steward of the Authentic Text even brought the Authentic Text to light! What we've learned about peacegirl's many Corruptions since then makes all of peacegirl's old posts pretty much moot, because they are simply her repetitions from her Corrupted Text.

[Stephen Maturin]

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Anyway, that was years before I, the True Steward of the Authentic Text even brought the Authentic Text to light! What we've learned about peacegirl's many Corruptions since then makes all of peacegirl's old posts pretty much moot, because they are simply her repetitions from her Corrupted Text.

Indeed, True Steward, indeed. peacegirl struck the first blow against by coming here and trying to pawn off 600 pages of stinking swill as the work of Seymour Lessans.

It was not until July 24, 2016 - which shall henceforth and forevermore be known as Authentic Text Resurrection Day - that we began to understand the true extent of peacegirl's aggravated and egregious fraud.

Of course, we do not blame peacegirl for her extensive misconduct. We live in a free will environment, which means that people's conscience operates at a 2 or 3 (in peacegirl's case, at a 1, tops). Still, it's kinda sad. Lessans is gone, and thus can't defend himself from the gang-rape peacegirl inflicted on his work.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by specious_reasons

I don't think your narrative fits with how I remember it.

When you first started posting, I was pretty sure the book you were promoting was utter bullshit. The shit about eyes not being sense organs and glandular homosexuals was like the icing on the amusement cake. I only argued with you about vision to see how committed you were to your father's nonsense.

What the hell? He mentioned one time about environmental causes that could be a factor in homosexuality, and you all went ballistic. He said nothing wrong. And he wasn't standing in judgment. He was trying to address questions that people had, but it obviously was taken the wrong way. That has nothing to do with the validity of his discovery. It's a joke. And you still don't know whether he is right or wrong about the eyes. Regardless, I didn't deserve the fallout that took place.

Originally Posted by specious_reasons

Once that got tiresome, I felt bad about myself for getting amusement by goading a clearly dysfunctional person to talk about their obsession.

It's not an obsession. It's a mission.

[erimir]

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

On top of everything else, I am "so jaded that [I] judge Vanilla Ice according you [sic] what [I] personally like or don't like."

It is truly impossible to overstate what a jerk I am.

That's ice cold, baby.

Originally Posted by specious_reasons

Once that got tiresome, I felt bad about myself for getting amusement by goading a clearly dysfunctional person to talk about their obsession.

The Simpsons - Stop he's already dead HD - YouTube

[Florence Jellem]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

That one post had to do with the two-sided equation, which is the core of the discovery. Maturin thought he found a flaw, but he was mistaken. Unfortunately, people assumed he was right and the thread could not recover.

I didn't bring it up because it doesn't matter. As I said earlier, most of the posts are nothing more than namecalling. It could have been 10 years ago and it wouldn't have made a difference because my answers would be the same. This particular rebuttal was inaccurate and caused people to think that the two-sided equation was flawed. It is not flawed. I had asked Maturin to find it so I could show him where he was mistaken, but he wouldn't help me probably because he doesn't want to be wrong. I found it on my own. I didn't know the post would be shown as another thread.

So — it was all a little misunderstanding!

Based on a single post by that nice Mr. Maturin.* Come on, say it Stephen: “My bad.”

You can do it!

*The hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of posts by Spacemonkey refuting the two-sided equation are hereby to be airbrushed out of the discussion like Stalin’s foes were out of photographs.

[Stephen Maturin]

My bad.

I shamefully confess that I accepted at face value peacegirl's false and fraudulent claims that the Corrupted Text was the work of Seymour Lessans. As we now know, the Corrupted Text was the work of a jealous, vacuous hack who had no understanding whatsoever of Lessans' discoveries. Thus, the rather glaring issue I pointed out, not to mention the many issues Spacemonkey pointed out over the course of multiple hundreds of posts, were problems not with Lessans' discoveries but rather with the fraudulent, corrupted bastardizations put forward by said jealous, vacuous hack.

[Florence Jellem]

peacegirl, dear, why did you gang-rape your father's book?

Was it the same impulse that made you kill my darling Adolf and steal my genital love interest, Jerome, from me?



Bully! Murderess! Gang Rapist! Genital Love Thief!

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

My bad.

I shamefully confess that I accepted at face value peacegirl's false and fraudulent claims that the Corrupted Text was the work of Seymour Lessans. As we now know, the Corrupted Text was the work of a jealous, vacuous hack who had no understanding whatsoever of Lessans' discoveries. Thus, the rather glaring issue I pointed out, not to mention the many issues Spacemonkey pointed out over the course of multiple hundreds of posts, were problems not with Lessans' discoveries but rather with the fraudulent, corrupted bastardizations put forward by said jealous, vacuous hack.

I did my best. Now I know there's no hope for this thread. You can't even admit you were wrong. You would rather continue to make false accusations. This came right out of his book but you won't acknowledge this fact because you're having too much fun lying about me. You have no couth!

[Florence Jellem]

Maturin has no couth!

I always knew it! Just the other day I was telling my best friend Paula Horvath, while we were playing Bingo with the other broads at the VFW adult rec center downtown, "This nice Mr. Maturin, he's a sharpie, but honestly, he has no couth!"

Now we discover the wages of uncouthery!

It means world peace will never come to pass!

[ChuckF]

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

My bad.

I shamefully confess that I accepted at face value peacegirl's false and fraudulent claims that the Corrupted Text was the work of Seymour Lessans. As we now know, the Corrupted Text was the work of a jealous, vacuous hack who had no understanding whatsoever of Lessans' discoveries. Thus, the rather glaring issue I pointed out, not to mention the many issues Spacemonkey pointed out over the course of multiple hundreds of posts, were problems not with Lessans' discoveries but rather with the fraudulent, corrupted bastardizations put forward by said jealous, vacuous hack.

Citizen Doctor, as the True Steward of the Authentic Text, I absolve you of any blame for your good faith yet erroneous acceptance of peacegirl's fraudulent claim that her Corrupted Text represented the words of Seymour Lessans.

I absolve you of blame first because you could not have known the depth and breadth of her manifold Corruptions, for I, the True Steward of the Authentic Text, had not yet rescued the Authentic Text from the obscurity to which she attempted to consign it when she rejected and Corrupted it for lucre.

I absolve you of blame second because I, the True Steward of the Authentic Text, hold up that slide rule, that corollary, that magic elixir, what have you, that was first set out by the Author in the Authentic Text, in his own words as published in his lifetime: THOU SHALL NOT BLAME.

I invite you all to join me in wishing that peacegirl could heed the Authentic Text rather than simply Corrupt it for lucre.

[Stephen Maturin]

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Citizen Doctor, as the True Steward of the Authentic Text, I absolve you of any blame for your good faith yet erroneous acceptance of peacegirl's fraudulent claim that her Corrupted Text represented the words of Seymour Lessans.

I absolve you of blame first because you could not have known the depth and breadth of her manifold Corruptions, for I, the True Steward of the Authentic Text, had not yet rescued the Authentic Text from the obscurity to which she attempted to consign it when she rejected and Corrupted it for lucre.

I absolve you of blame second because I, the True Steward of the Authentic Text, hold up that slide rule, that corollary, that magic elixir, what have you, that was first set out by the Author in the Authentic Text, in his own words as published in his lifetime: THOU SHALL NOT BLAME.

Thank you, good sir. In exchange for your kindness and fidelity to your calling as True Steward, I shall dispense no advice and collect no fee.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

I invite you all to join me in wishing that peacegirl could heed the Authentic Text rather than simply Corrupt it for lucre.

[But]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

And you still don't know whether he is right or wrong about the eyes.

peacegirl, how is it possible that NASA hasn't figured out yet that their calculations are off by tens of thousands of kilometers?