Forums...belonging or not to belonging

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by JoeP

We even have a smilie for it:

LOL!

[livius drusus]

Not fair, Goliath.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

Not fair, Goliath.

You're right. I apologize for the "Royalty" comment, and edited it out.

However, I do find it odd that godfry and I both don't aspire to find common ground with theists, yet I'm clearly the one being ganged up on here.

Oh well, nothing new for me in happening to do the same thing as someone else, but getting unfairly lambasted for it...

[godfry n. glad]

Well, Goliath, that seals it... I have no ambition to find common ground with you.

So be it.

godfry

FF royalty? Did I miss a coronation somewhere?

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Well, Goliath, that seals it... I have no ambition to find common ground with you.

So be it.

Indeed. So be it.

FF royalty? Did I miss a coronation somewhere?

Perhaps you also missed my editing it out and apologizing for it?

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I am fucking warm, and fucking fuzzy, and I'll kick your ass if you say otherwise again.

Post proof or retract. You clearly state that you're not fuzzy.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by JoeP

Post proof or retract. You clearly state that you're not fuzzy.

Joe...

I can't read the link (banned forever and forever, amen), but do I detect the claim that LadyShea has contradicted herself?

If so, I'll back your demand. I wanna see the fuzzy/not fuzzy.

godfry

(psssst....I am fuzzy. And warm, too! And I'll file charges of animal abuse if anybody kicks my ass!)

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Goliath

Oh well, nothing new for me in happening to do the same thing as someone else, but getting unfairly lambasted for it...

I don't know if you're talking about me or not, but frankly I don't see the similarity you seem to see between your and godfry's positions. He has not dismissed the possibility of having much in common with a majority of the population of the world a priori because they are theists, whereas it seems to me that you have. So neither of you makes a point of seeking common ground with theists. Only one of you has pre-emptively discounted the possibility. That to me is the issue, not whether or not it's your life's goal to befriend theists.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I don't know if you're talking about me or not,

Actually, I was referring to godfry in this specific instance, but the situation of someone else doing the same thing as I, but me being unfairly lambasted for it has happened to me many, many times before.

He has not dismissed the possibility of having much in common with a majority of the population of the world a priori because they are theists, whereas it seems to me that you have.

Wrong yet again.

I really don't know what the fuck is going on with respect to these constant misreadings. Are the words that I've typed coming across on your monitor in English? I honestly am beginning to wonder if there is some kind of evil gibberish gnome that has hacked into the board, translating my posts into complete gibberish for the transfer to everyone else's computers...

I have admitted many times that it's possible to find common ground with theists.

Here, I'll say it again: It's possible to find common ground with theists. I do not have enough evidence to suggest that such an act is impossible.

It's just a possibility for which I don't feel the necessity to explore. Frankly, your continued attacks against me on this matter make about as much sense as flaming someone for wanting to drink Coke instead of Pepsi, or for wanting to drive Fords instead of Buicks.

Okay, so you think it's great to find common ground with theists. I see that such common ground might exist, but don't feel like pursuing it. Could you please just deal with it, and let this spat go?

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Goliath

Actually, I was referring to godfry in this specific instance, but the situation of someone else doing the same thing as I, but me being unfairly lambasted for it has happened to me many, many times before.

Okay.

Originally Posted by Goliath

Wrong yet again.

I really don't know what the fuck is going on with respect to these constant misreadings. Are the words that I've typed coming across on your monitor in English? I honestly am beginning to wonder if there is some kind of evil gibberish gnome that has hacked into the board, translating my posts into complete gibberish for the transfer to everyone else's computers...

I have admitted many times that it's possible to find common ground with theists.

Here, I'll say it again: It's possible to find common ground with theists. I do not have enough evidence to suggest that such an act is impossible.

You can yell and scream at me all you want, but that's not going to change the fact that I didn't misread you or misrepresent what you said. Read what I said again. I said (bold added) "dismissed the possibility of having much in common". Your exact words earlier were "almost nothing in common". How is that a misrepresentation of your position?

It's just a possibility for which I don't feel the necessity to explore. Frankly, your continued attacks against me on this matter make about as much sense as flaming someone for wanting to drink Coke instead of Pepsi, or for wanting to drive Fords instead of Buicks.

I am not attacking you. You are the one who is peppering your responses with bold print and sarcasm. I am the one who is being calm, rational and polite to you and getting nothing close to that in return.

Okay, so you think it's great to find common ground with theists. I see that such common ground might exist, but don't feel like pursuing it. Could you please just deal with it, and let this spat go?

I'm dealing with things just fine, thanks. You are the one who's being unreasonable here. And no amount of screaming and stamping your feet at me is going to change that. I haven't made any attempt to attack, mischaracterize or otherwise assault you, and I think that's obvious to anyone who reads this thread. That you feel I have is your problem, not mine.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

You can yell and scream at me all you want,

Actually, I'm not yelling and screaming. I would've used all caps to indicate yelling and screaming.

I've forgotten that you misconstrue bold font as screaming, though. I apologize, and I'll try to remember to stop using it in responses to you.

Read what I said again. I said (bold added) "dismissed the possibility of having much in common". Your exact words earlier were "almost nothing in common". How is that a misrepresentation of your position?

Because I've said that I seem to have almost nothing in common with them. I've also said that I really don't have the ambition to find out if I do have a lot in common with them.

Why can't you deal with that?

I am not attacking you.

Hardly! You seem to be twisting my words around to the end of what seems to be an attempt at character assassination.

Also, with practically every post you've made since this spat started, you've been throwing a temper tantrum, trying to demand that I not have the preferences that I have regarding the want to find common ground with theists.

Again, I really don't have the ambition to find common ground with them. When are you going to learn to live with that?

I am the one who is being calm, rational and polite to you

Then why haven't I perceived it, and why have I perceived such behavior from almost everyone else in this board, except you?

I'm dealing with things just fine, thanks.

Good. Then you can deal with the fact that I don't have the ambition to find common ground with theists and put this topic to rest, yes?

[Goliath]

Now, I have to finish putting together a homework assignment and do some grading, so I'm going to leave this kindergarten spat be for now. I'll look things over tomorrow, and unless you have something new to say, vm ("I accept and realize that you don't have the ambition to find common ground with theists" would be something new <hint, hint> ), then I doubt that I'll bother to reply.

[Goliath]

Oops, missed this post:

Originally Posted by beyelzu

what I hope for this forum is that we can deal with xians with respect so long as they do the same. that doesnt mean I wont tell some dipshit to fuck off when he or she is being offensive, but when the person you ae talking to remains civil, I think we all should as well.

Agreed.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Goliath

Actually, I'm not yelling and screaming. I would've used all caps to indicate yelling and screaming.

I've forgotten that you misconstrue bold font as screaming, though. I apologize, and I'll try to remember to stop using it in responses to you.

Fair enough, I apologize for the misinterpretation then.

Originally Posted by Goliath

Because I've said that I seem to have almost nothing in common with them. I've also said that I really don't have the ambition to find out if I do have a lot in common with them.

Why can't you deal with that?

So I said it seems to me that you have a priori dismissed the possibility of having much in common with theists, and you have affirmed that again just now. In other words I didn't misrepresent you at all.

Originally Posted by Goliath

Hardly! You seem to be twisting my words around to the end of what seems to be an attempt at character assassination.

Also, with practically every post you've made since this spat started, you've been throwing a temper tantrum, trying to demand that I not have the preferences that I have regarding the want to find common ground with theists.

Again, I really don't have the ambition to find common ground with them. When are you going to learn to live with that?

I haven't twisted your words at all, as I have repeatedly pointed out. If you want to continue accusing me of doing so then find a quote where I claimed you said something that contradicts your position.

Originally Posted by Goliath

Then why haven't I perceived it, and why have I perceived such behavior from almost everyone else in this board, except you?

Are you honestly asking me to psychoanalyze you? I have no idea why you think I'm attacking you when I'm not, and obviously no amount of my saying otherwise registers with you. What more do you want me to say?

Originally Posted by Goliath

Good. Then you can deal with the fact that I don't have the ambition to find common ground with theists and put this topic to rest, yes?

No. As long as you keep making generalized statements about theists I will continue to call you on it. Just like I would if someone was in here repeatedly making generalized statements about any other group of people. Good luck if you think I'm just going to look the other way from comments that I find morally reprehensible.

Oh and despite your condescension about kindergarten spats, I will gladly state that I accept and realize that you don't have any ambition to find common ground with theists, since you asked. Of course that has nothing to do with the discussion I've been attempting to have with you, but there it is. Now maybe you can explain how that statement doesn't imply a sweeping generalization about all theists, which is in fact what I've been talking about all along.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Fair enough, I apologize for the misinterpretation then.

No problem.

So I said it seems to me that you have a priori dismissed the possibility of having much in common with theists,

You are, again, wrong. I have not dismissed such a possibility. I fully admit that such a possibility exists. I just do not feel the ambition to explore it.

Again, I have not dismissed such a possibility. I fully admit that such a possibility exists. I just do not feel the ambition to explore it.

In other words I didn't misrepresent you at all.

You have done so in every post of yours in this thread, and you continue to do so. Are you doing this on purpose? I hope not.

If you want to continue accusing me of doing so then find a quote where I claimed you said something that contradicts your position.

See above.

I have no idea why you think I'm attacking you when I'm not,

If you're not attacking me, then why is it that I was able to have a relatively civil conversation with godfry about this topic, but not you?

In case you hadn't noticed, the person that I'm trying to scrutinize here isn't me.

No. As long as you keep making generalized statements about theists I will continue to call you on it.

Then it's settled. Each and every single time you misrepresent my words (which, incidentally has been most of our interaction on this board), I will call you on it.

Good luck if you think I'm just going to look the other way from comments that I find morally reprehensible.

And good luck if you think I'm going to let you succeed at your pathetic attempts at character assassination. I like a lot of the people on this board, and I'll be damned if I'll let you dress up some strawmen to look like me to them.

I will gladly state that I accept and realize that you don't have any ambition to find common ground with theists, since you asked.

Thank you.

Of course that has nothing to do with the discussion I've been attempting to have with you,

No, it has nothing to do with the discussion that you're having with yourself (i.e. you vs. your twisting of my words). It has everything to do with the topic in the OP, however.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Goliath

You are, again, wrong. I have not dismissed such a possibility. I fully admit that such a possibility exists. I just do not feel the ambition to explore it.

Again, I have not dismissed such a possibility. I fully admit that such a possibility exists. I just do not feel the ambition to explore it.

Goliath, this all started with this comment of yours to seebs:

Wrong, as I have been able to converse with theists with whom I (naturally) have almost nothing in common, and with whom the conversations did not turn even slightly confrontational.

Are you denying that saying you "(naturally) have almost nothing in common [with theists]" is a priori dismissing the possibility of having much in common with theists, or has your position changed since you wrote that?

Originally Posted by Goliath

You have done so in every post of yours in this thread, and you continue to do so. Are you doing this on purpose? I hope not.

Repeating the accusation doesn't make it true. Again, quote me where I claimed you said something that contradicts your actual position or admit that I have not once misrepresented you.

Originally Posted by Goliath

See above.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by Goliath

If you're not attacking me, then why is it that I was able to have a relatively civil conversation with godfry about this topic, but not you?

godfry very quickly gave up trying to argue with you out of apparent frustration. Do you seriously count that as a successful dialogue?

Originally Posted by Goliath

In case you hadn't noticed, the person that I'm trying to scrutinize here isn't me.

Maybe you should ask yourself why that is.

Originally Posted by Goliath

Then it's settled. Each and every single time you misrepresent my words (which, incidentally has been most of our interaction on this board), I will call you on it.

Fair enough. Feel free to start right now by quoting me where I've done that.

Originally Posted by Goliath

And good luck if you think I'm going to let you succeed at your pathetic attempts at character assassination. I like a lot of the people on this board, and I'll be damned if I'll let you dress up some strawmen to look like me to them.

Once again I have no idea why you think I'm attacking you when I'm not, but until you can quote me where I misrepresented something you've said your reiteration of the accusation is as inaccurate as ever.

Originally Posted by Goliath

Thank you.

Don't bother to thank me. The question was a red herring and irrelevant to the discussion, so my answering it was no victory for either of us. I just wanted to get it out of the way in case a real discussion might be possible.

Originally Posted by Goliath

No, it has nothing to do with the discussion that you're having with yourself (i.e. you vs. your twisting of my words). It has everything to do with the topic in the OP, however.

I apologize for my cold and condescending tone yesterday and probably in part today. I find talking to you extremely frustrating because your presumption that I am trying to assassinate your character IMO colors all of our interactions. Since I have a hot temper my responses when I'm angry are typically either very vicious or very cold and calculated. I don't really like indulging either, but the latter does seem preferable so I usually go with it.

Anyway I am not going to continue beyond this point. I have said everything I want to say on the subject and I hold very little hope that you and I will ever have a substantive discussion, so I won't keep picking at the wound. Unless and until you are willing to take what I say at face value without assuming that I have it in for you it's pointless for me to keep trying.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Are you denying that saying you "(naturally) have almost nothing in common [with theists]" is a priori dismissing the possibility of having much in common with theists, or has your position changed since you wrote that?

Again, you misread what I say. I said that I have been able to converse with theists with whom I (naturally) have nothing in common.

Look at that "with whom" (the italicized font is for emphasis only, so please don't go foaming at the mouth about me screaming at you). The "with whom" indicates that it is the set of those particular theists that I have conversed with that I have almost nothing in common with. Note that I have said literally nothing in that quote about theists that I have not conversed with.

This is the nth time (for some really big n) that you have mischaracterized what I've said. Are you ready to own up to it, now, or will you stay in denial?

Repeating the accusation doesn't make it true. Again, quote me where I claimed you said something that contradicts your actual position

I have done little else in this thread. Look at my reply to your first quoted block in this post.

godfry very quickly gave up trying to argue with you out of apparent frustration. Do you seriously count that as a successful dialogue?

There you go again, mischaracterizing what I said. I mentioned nothing about the dialogue between godfry and I being "successful." In fact, I'd wager that if you looked through the text of this thread, the only places that you'd find "succesful" would be in your post that I'm replying to, and in this reply (in reference to your twisting of my words).

I said nothing about the dialogue with godfry being successful. I said that it was relatively civil compared to the arguing between you and I.

Please, do us both a favor, and just read what's there: no more, no less.

Maybe you should ask yourself why that is.

Ummm.....because I want to figure out why you seem to perceive that you're being polite to me and not attacking me, when the opposite is the case.

Fair enough. Feel free to start right now by quoting me where I've done that.

I've done so twice in this post already.

I apologize for my cold and condescending tone yesterday and probably in part today.

Apology accepted.

I find talking to you extremely frustrating because your presumption that I am trying to assassinate your character IMO colors all of our interactions.

Well, I wish it were only a perception...but it also happens to be true.

Unless and until you are willing to take what I say at face value

I haven't done--and strive never to do--otherwise.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Goliath

Again, you misread what I say. I said that I have been able to converse with theists with whom I (naturally) have nothing in common.

Look at that "with whom" (the italicized font is for emphasis only, so please don't go foaming at the mouth about me screaming at you). The "with whom" indicates that it is the set of those particular theists that I have conversed with that I have almost nothing in common with. Note that I have said literally nothing in that quote about theists that I have not conversed with.

This is the nth time (for some really big n) that you have mischaracterized what I've said. Are you ready to own up to it, now, or will you stay in denial?

So when you said you "(naturally) have almost nothing in common [with theists]", what did you mean by "naturally"? You "naturally" have nothing in common with theists you converse with? Why? What quality do all theists that you converse with have that makes it natural that you would have almost nothing in common with them?

Originally Posted by Goliath

I have done little else in this thread. Look at my reply to your first quoted block in this post.

I disagree that you have done so at all, but perhaps when you answer my question above it will become more obvious how you think you have.

Originally Posted by Goliath

There you go again, mischaracterizing what I said. I mentioned nothing about the dialogue between godfry and I being "successful." In fact, I'd wager that if you looked through the text of this thread, the only places that you'd find "succesful" would be in your post that I'm replying to, and in this reply (in reference to your twisting of my words).

I said nothing about the dialogue with godfry being successful. I said that it was relatively civil compared to the arguing between you and I.

Please, do us both a favor, and just read what's there: no more, no less.

You are nitpicking about my choice of words instead of addressing the substance of my comments, again and again and again. To me it is absolutely meaningless to say you had a civil dialogue with someone when in fact that person opted not to dialogue with you at all. Hence I view your claim that your unsuccessful dialogue was an example of a civil dialogue as erroneous, but the fact that I worded it differently doesn't detract from the point.

Originally Posted by Goliath

Ummm.....because I want to figure out why you seem to perceive that you're being polite to me and not attacking me, when the opposite is the case.

For you to say the opposite is the case you'd have to be able to read my mind. I'm sorry but I don't believe that you have that ability.

Originally Posted by Goliath

I've done so twice in this post already.

I disagree, as explained above.

Originally Posted by Goliath

Well, I wish it were only a perception...but it also happens to be true.

Again, unless you can read my mind I disagree that you can say so.

Originally Posted by Goliath

I haven't done--and strive never to do--otherwise.

That isn't how it appears to me.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

So when you said you "(naturally) have almost nothing in common [with theists]", what did you mean by "naturally"?

By "naturally", I meant that I didn't have that much in common with them because I knew that I had very little in common with them. "Them" being the particular theists that I mentioned having conversed with.

You are nitpicking about my choice of words instead of addressing the substance of my comments, again and again and again.

No, I am reading what's there rather than reading anything into it.

And I don't find your comments to have that much substance, as the erecting of strawmen rarely has anything to do with substance.

To me it is absolutely meaningless to say you had a civil dialogue with someone when in fact that person opted not to dialogue with you at all.

And there you go again. I didn't say "civil." I didn't say "nuclear-powered toothbrush." I didn't say "toaster oven big enough to crush the Earth." And I didn't say "my cell phone is ringing." I said relatively civil.

For you to say the opposite is the case you'd have to be able to read my mind. I'm sorry but I don't believe that you have that ability.

Okay, I'll concede that point. I sincerely apologize for acting as though I could read your mind. Seebs has infurated me by doing that to me repeatedly in the past, so it was wrong to do it to you.

[Cool Hand]

Well, I'm arriving at the party in this thread a bit late, but what the fuck, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

First, I agree with Ceptimus about the point at which one starts to feel like part of the community. I'm not quite there yet, as I haven't interacted with enough of the posters here to know who's who and what they're all about.

Although I joined by accepting a gracious invitation on 7-15-04, I have mostly lurked, but not much, and wasted a hell of a lot of time playing Asteroids. I held the high score there twice, but that rat bastard Blake has taken it away from me just a day later both times.

Anyway, I took a look at the member list here just now, and I recognize exactly 12 other posters from 3 other forums of which I have been an active member. I just left one, and rarely post at another that I left due to my disgust with the heavy-handed and very proactive moderation for content, after having been promised at least 6 times by a former administrator that the site would never by moderated for content.

Now I am a member at two forums (including this one), both of which are firmly dedicated to having exactly zero moderators (Yay! What a concept!), and from what I have read here, I suspect this will become my new internet forum home. I am very favorably impressed with the atmosphere and the extremely bright, witty, and learned posters here. This also happens to be the most well-thought out, fully decked out, and loaded-with-cool-features forum I have ever seen.

In short, I like it here. I look forward to getting to know more of the other posters and to having some great discussions with them.

Thanks again liv and VM, for setting up a terrific place, and for inviting me over here.

Cool Hand

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand

Well, I'm arriving at the party in this thread a bit late, but what the fuck, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

And Ah Pook bless you for it.

First, I agree with Ceptimus about the point at which one starts to feel like part of the community. I'm not quite there yet, as I haven't interacted with enough of the posters here to know who's who and what they're all about.

That raises an interesting (if slightly tangential - sorry) point for me: what about people who read a great deal and have a pretty clear idea of who's who but have never posted? Do they feel at home in their own way, or is there some undercurrent of discomfort which keeps them quiet despite their sometimes superior knowledge of all the talkers?

Although I joined by accepting a gracious invitation on 7-15-04, I have mostly lurked, but not much, and wasted a hell of a lot of time playing Asteroids. I held the high score there twice, but that rat bastard Blake has taken it away from me just a day later both times.

He he... You and Farren should start a support group, only I don't think you really want to snuggle up to that title hog.

In all seriousness though, vm and I decided to install the Arcade to give FF a homey, light-hearted aspect beyond quip exchanges. Not to indulge in excessive truisms, but playing is fun! I think it gives people a place to be (and even a platform for speech in the form of comments) even when they don't feel comfortable posting on the board.

Anyway, I took a look at the member list here just now, and I recognize exactly 12 other posters from 3 other forums of which I have been an active member.

Hey that's like 10 percent of the membership, man.

I just left one, and rarely post at another that I left due to my disgust with the heavy-handed and very proactive moderation for content, after having been promised at least 6 times by a former administrator that the site would never by moderated for content.

You know, I seriously think so many of JREF's problems come from poor organization. They didn't think ahead and had no idea that a little feedback forum could turn into a mini-society. Needless to say, I think sticking your head in the sand and half-assing it leaves a lot to be desired, and JREF is a spectacularly chaotic example of that.

Now I am a member at two forums (including this one), both of which are firmly dedicated to having exactly zero moderators (Yay! What a concept!), and from what I have read here, I suspect this will become my new internet forum home. I am very favorably impressed with the atmosphere and the extremely bright, witty, and learned posters here.

That kicks ass, Cool Hand. I agree that we've got an amazingly great group of people here and that definitely includes you.

This also happens to be the most well-thought out, fully decked out, and loaded-with-cool-features forum I have ever seen.

And this from a man who doesn't use smilies. Thank you. I admit that I'm so used to FF that I'm constantly reaching for non-existent features on other vB boards.

In short, I like it here. I look forward to getting to know more of the other posters and to having some great discussions with them.

Thanks again liv and VM, for setting up a terrific place, and for inviting me over here.

Thank you for being here.

[Adora]

tl;dr

My common ground for reading above shitfights is for shitfights to actually be interesting and about something worthwhile.

¬_¬ It's like the boring IIDB shit that started this little wank session has overflowed into this forum.

[pescifish]

Originally Posted by Adora

tl;dr

[LadyXoc]

Shitfights or no shitfights, I feel surprisingly at home given how short a time I've been here.

[livius drusus]

I'm very seriously happy to hear that. Shitfights, much like shit itself, happen. What counts is that they remain localized instead of tainting other threads/forums and the wider relationships between people. A little perspective is all I ask.

Of course, I may change that tune the minute the first Nazi shows up here. It depends on whether I think he's just a deluded, ignorant fuck or a malicious, lying sack of shit fuck.

Oh, and I've been meaning to tell you LadyXoc: I'm really glad you chose that avatar. I think it's just perfect for you.