For those among us who are devotees of Batman or Christopher Nolan, there is like nothing anyone could say that would dissuade you from seeing DKR. As a corollary, if you didn't like the previous movies there's probably nothing I could say that would encourage you to see it. What Nolan et al have done is create a trilogy. A great one at that. Three very good movies that happen to be about a well known and loved comic book character. He's taken elements that already existed within the canon of that character, given it a little shake and poured out something that is, at a minimum, the equal to any other single story of the canon.
As an imperfect comparison, DKR was a little bit like Spider-Man 3. There was a lot going on. A lot of pieces that needed to be moved around the board. A lot of action needed to happen. And a lot of story that needed telling. Where the two franchises differ is that for everything that Spider-Man 3 did wrong, DKR did right.
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Originally Posted by Janet
Bane's voice. George Lucas has a lot to answer for but he got one thing right. If you need to redub all the vocals for your main villain, think James Earl Jones, not whatever Nolan was thinking.
I wasn't as bothered by this. I do remember how he sounded in the first trailers, and it was terrible. His redubbing of the lines makes Bane easier to understand but at the same time it's obvious that it was studio work and not in the environment.
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Originally Posted by Janet
My second issue is actually an issue with Batman films in general. Far too many people find out, work out or get told who Batman really is. Amazing that the comic books have gone for decades and the animated series for years without anyone finding out but film-makers can't go three hours without it.
In this final movie there are five people who know the secret. Lucius knows because he's the one giving Bruce all the toys. Bane knows because he knows. (I can't say more.) Selina knows because she was there when Bane revealed that he knew. She might've eventually figured it out on her own but not because she was trying. Blake made an assumption based on a guess and maybe some correlation to other things - he's the only person who figured it out on his own. Gordon was given a very explicit clue. That's still pretty good odds given that most of the police force was trying to figure it out.
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Originally Posted by Janet
Bane - Here you got Bane the master strategist, not just Bane the 'roided out venom junkie. In fact, venom doesn't get mentioned at all. You also got to see the iconic Bane moments fans were hoping for.
Catwoman - I went into this very skeptical about Anne Hathaway as Catwoman, but by the end of the film she'd completely won me over. She give us a Catwoman whose not quite noble enough to be a hero, yet not quite cynical enough to be a villain and unable to completely commit to either. I think she nailed it.
You are very smart and I agree with everything you say. I will add that Joseph Gordon Levitt was great in his role. Blake was a well drawn character and JGL was fantastic. I have a niggle about where he ended up, but it's little.
I think where people don't like TDKR is because they go in thinking it's a Batman movie (a la TDK, where Good vs Evil face off). It's not. It's the last chapter in the evolution of Bruce Wayne. Go in with that in mind and you'll come out quite satisfied. Go in expecting "Batman vs. Bane" to top "Batman vs. Joker", and you'll be somewhat disappointed.
Larger-than-life Bane is one road block. In the end, like in the Knightfall comic series, the story is about decisions and their consequences on many, many, levels. There is a metric fuckton of closure that I didn't expect.
And the rope is totally a symbol of white male privilege
I think making Dick Grayson (or whatever Robin that was meant to be) a cop was kind of a desperate way to make his appearance a surprise. I hope if they do a Nightwing film or something or another with that character, they'll elaborate on his background a bit more... it was still a pretty huge departure. Not that I didn't love the way Nolan swore he'd never do a Robin, then went ahead and did it. Very cool.
Godzilla vs. Monster Zero or more accurately since I watched the Japanese version,Invasion of the Astro Monster.
I think everyone pretty much agrees that Monster Zero is one of the best Godzilla movies every. It's certainly one of my favorites, but after watching again last night I'm wondering why. It takes a surprisingly long time to get to the smashing stuff up point.
I also realized that it's the moment Godzilla turns camp. The first evidence of this is the jig Godzilla dances after beating Ghidorah for the first time. The other is a line that's never bothered me before. As they are leaving the monsters on Planet X, the American astronaut says he's not sure they are doing the right thing because Godzilla and Rodan look resentful. First off, of course they're resentful! You just left them on a planet with no way to get home. Resentful is putting it mildly. Second, we care about Godzilla's feefees now? When did this happen? This creature has been murdering people and destroying cities and you're worried about its feelings? No, just no.
And that's where Godzilla went wrong. From there it was a tiny step to baby Godzilla and laser smoke rings.
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"freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order."
- Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Ed. v. Barnette
I dunno where you heard that was one of the best. I've only seen one star reviews of Monster Zero. It does have more ambition than most Godzilla films, but it doesn't deliver on it. The Three-Headed Monster is better (not that it's great).
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hide, witch, hide / the good folks come to burn thee / their keen enjoyment hid behind / a gothic mask of duty - P. Kantner
I dunno where you heard that was one of the best. I've only seen one star reviews of Monster Zero. It does have more ambition than most Godzilla films, but it doesn't deliver on it. The Three-Headed Monster is better (not that it's great).
Everyone I know thinks it's one of the greats. It must also have a certain prominence in Japan since they brought back the aliens from Planet X for Godzilla: Final Wars.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that I have realized that Ghidorah is probably my favorite monster because he's one who never helped humanity. I do love a good villain.
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"freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order."
- Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Ed. v. Barnette
The Dark Knight Rises left me seriously underwhelmed. At least 30 min. before the end of the movie I was wishing it would be over. Too many plot holes, the story too over the top to fit with the two previous films.
And the ending actively irritated me with how cheap it was. Actually kill him, or don't do a fake-out.
Bruce is a major fucking asshole: he lets Alfred think he's dead. Call him on the phone you rat fucking bastard!
I did like some details, like the twist.
I did suspect Miranda was Talia very early on, but totally didn't see it coming that she was villanous.
The Dark Knight Rises left me seriously underwhelmed. At least 30 min. before the end of the movie I was wishing it would be over. Too many plot holes, the story too over the top to fit with the two previous films.
Too over the top compared to The Dark Knight?
Sure, the Joker doesn't threaten to blow up the whole city, but he predicts most every move from Batman and the authorities, has an endless supply of henchmen willing to die for him and has no hiccups in setting up elaborate sets of dominoes multiple times.
What bugged me most about DKR in retrospect was Alfred's behavior. Without spoiling anything, his actions in the second half of the film only make sense to fit the plot, not his character. Also, while I think Nolan understands the villains better than most, I really don't think he gets Batman as a character. But I accept that there have been and are a ton of people with different takes on the character working on Batman over the years and I can accept that I might be wrong in this case.
I don't really believe I am wrong, but I'd be willing to listen to a strong case to the contrary. And then, when said person had made their case, I'd say, "No. BTAS had it right and you are wrong and always will be." I'm just stubborn like that.
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"freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order."
- Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Ed. v. Barnette
Sure, the Joker doesn't threaten to blow up the whole city, but he predicts most every move from Batman and the authorities, has an endless supply of henchmen willing to die for him and has no hiccups in setting up elaborate sets of dominoes multiple times.
Yes.
It wasn't the threat to the whole city, which of course happens in the first film, it's how it's treated; that combined with various other things, for examples
Batman outrunning a swarm of missiles in his helicopter. Or that the 'copter remained undiscovered on the top of a building for five months in Anarchy City. Or how the hell did Bruce get back into Gotham?
really took me out of the movie. It broke my suspension of disbelief, then stomped on it with Selina's heel-blades.
It wasn't the threat to the whole city, which of course happens in the first film, it's how it's treated; that combined with various other things, for examples
Batman outrunning a swarm of missiles in his helicopter. Or that the 'copter remained undiscovered on the top of a building for five months in Anarchy City. Or how the hell did Bruce get back into Gotham?
really took me out of the movie. It broke my suspension of disbelief, then stomped on it with Selina's heel-blades.
Well, maybe the helicopter is portrayed as faster than is really possible. Justified by "secret advanced tech" I suppose.
We see something like 1:52 left on the bomb before Batman takes it out of the city. If the bomb had a blast radius of 6 miles, and Batman had less than 2 minutes to kiss Catwoman, get in the helicopter, start it up and get on its way out of the city, and he managed to get the bomb far enough out that none of the blast radius had any noticeable effect on the city, I'd say he has to have gotten the bomb at least 7 miles out from that bridge. Being generous and giving him 80 seconds left once he reaches the edge of the city, that means he has to be flying at least 300 mph. He doesn't seem to be going that fast, and if it was going 300 mph, it would be the fastest helicopter-type aircraft ever since the current fastest is 299 mph. And that's being generous, I think.
But there's really no plot reason to give him less than 2 minutes. Batman's helicopter doesn't NEED to be that fast. The bomb radius does need to be large in order for most of Manhattan Gotham to be destroyed or dangerously irradiated. Given how little time they have, it looks really ridiculous for Batman to spend so much time saying goodbye to Selina. They could've simply put more time on the clock. They can just film the scenes and figure out later how much time to put on the clock each time it appears. Giving Batman 5-8 minutes to get the bomb clear of the 6 mile radius does not make it seem less urgent. But then again, for it seem urgent, you'd have to portray Batman and Catwoman as seeing the time left as very urgent. He'd still have to fly over 100 mph once the copter gets clear of the city. If they were worried that people wouldn't feel the urgency, they could simply have someone mention the size of the blast radius again ("I have to get this thing at least 6 miles out!") or show the timer counting down once or twice while it's in the air.
I'm more forgiving of advanced tech like that than I am of unrealistic motivations and such (I have more of a problem with the Joker's clairvoyance).
I can see the helicopter remaining undiscovered. I don't think there was a concerted effort to visit every rooftop in the city. And without Bane specifically doing that, I can buy nobody going up there. It would've been a smart thing to do, but Bane overlooking something in an out of the way location isn't unrealistic. Probably a lot of the upper floors of buildings wouldn't have been the most hospitable with the inevitable power outages and such you'd expect in that situation.
Batman getting into Gotham is very minor. Batman's stealth abilities are well-established, and Bane's henchmen did not set up an impenetrable perimeter.
Well, maybe the helicopter is portrayed as faster than is really possible. Justified by "secret advanced tech" I suppose.
We see something like 1:52 left on the bomb before Batman takes it out of the city. If the bomb had a blast radius of 6 miles, and Batman had less than 2 minutes to kiss Catwoman, get in the helicopter, start it up and get on its way out of the city, and he managed to get the bomb far enough out that none of the blast radius had any noticeable effect on the city, I'd say he has to have gotten the bomb at least 7 miles out from that bridge. Being generous and giving him 80 seconds left once he reaches the edge of the city, that means he has to be flying at least 300 mph. He doesn't seem to be going that fast, and if it was going 300 mph, it would be the fastest helicopter-type aircraft ever since the current fastest is 299 mph. And that's being generous, I think.
I can see the helicopter remaining undiscovered. I don't think there was a concerted effort to visit every rooftop in the city. And without Bane specifically doing that, I can buy nobody going up there. It would've been a smart thing to do, but Bane overlooking something in an out of the way location isn't unrealistic. Probably a lot of the upper floors of buildings wouldn't have been the most hospitable with the inevitable power outages and such you'd expect in that situation.
Batman getting into Gotham is very minor. Batman's stealth abilities are well-established, and Bane's henchmen did not set up an impenetrable perimeter.
Missiles, except for cruise missiles (which run on jet, not rocket engines), travel at rifle bullet speeds.
I had a problem with the nuke, too. That is not what six megatonnes looks like. That's more like 100 kilotonnes, or even half that. This is more what six megatonnes looks like, which you're not going to fly a few dozen miles off the coast and make okay.
I didn't mean Bane. When anarchy rules, I can't buy that not a single soul didn't go up there to see what was under the tarp. It's not a high building, you can see the top from 'scrapers all around. "Hey, what's that tarp covering?"
Bruce climbed his way out of a Moroccan prison. He's got dick, least of all a Passport. The Military was keeping people both in and out of Gotham. Military vs. one guy with ninja training. Yeah.
Eh, if you think Batman can't do that, then you have more of a problem with the whole idea of Batman than you do with the plot of the movie specifically.
Batman is well-established as being very resourceful and stealthy. He's not doing something physically impossible, nor something I wouldn't expect him to be able to do in the comics or the animated series, etc.
Obviously Batman is a very unrealistic character, being so good at so many things - he's an excellent fighter, acrobat, spy, inventor, excellent marksman whether shooting or throwing, high-speed chase driver, escape artist, lock pick, knowledgeable about most areas of science, technology, bombs, etc. and he speaks multiple languages.
While just how good he is at those things varies from portrayal to portrayal, you know that's what you're getting into with a Batman story. Just like you're not going to question that Superman doesn't get hurt by bullets.
So, yeah, I think you're making way too big of a deal out of that. Unless, as I said, your problem is with the character of Batman more generally.
Mr. Moto's Last Warning - I know that Mr. Moto movies are questionable, what with the yellow-face and all. I've been reluctant to watch them for just that reason, despite my appreciation for Peter Lorre. From what's been showing up at my house, I must have been on a George Sanders binge one day and tossed this in my queue along with the others.
So here's the thing, Mr. Moto is totally awesome! Seriously, great character beautifully played by Peter Lorre. I've put every other Mr. Moto movie Netflix has into my queue and checked out the books we have from the library. I really wish someone would remake them all with a Japanese actor so everyone could see how awesome a character he really is.
__________________
"freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order."
- Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Ed. v. Barnette
Eh, if you think Batman can't do that, then you have more of a problem with the whole idea of Batman than you do with the plot of the movie specifically.
Batman is well-established as being very resourceful and stealthy. He's not doing something physically impossible, nor something I wouldn't expect him to be able to do in the comics or the animated series, etc.
Aye, but which Batman?
I wouldn't have a problem with it if it didn't conflict with the "realistic" world that Nolan previously established. It's not the cartoon, it's not the comics, it's not the Burton films.
I'm sorry, but no. I can't buy that he slipped past the military with the tight weave net they would put up in a situation like that. Thermal cameras, blood hounds, night vision, motion sensors, drones, and troops, troops, troops . . . I mean come on!
If Saving Private Ryan had Rambo shit in it, it would take you out of the movie, wouldn't it?
Consistency.
Really though, this plot hole only took me out of the movie a little bit. The other problems I've mentioned, and some I haven't, were what really did it.
Saw The Dark Knight Rises last night in IMAX. I enjoyed it very much both as a comic book and a movie fan.
Like others, I was pleasantly surprised with the closure presented for Bruce Wayne. It was good to see him have a happy life, at last....for however long it will last.
I was always bothered by the death of Harvey Dent and Batman becoming the scapegoat for it. It never made sense to me and felt forced. That feeling didn't leave me entirely even after TDKR. It's so clearly something to move the plot along and not very well written.
Once I moved past that, I really enjoyed the film. As a geek, I loved the callbacks to comic book lore. It's very clear that Nolan and Goyer did their research. I loved the origin of this version of Bane. Very well done and it fits so perfectly within this universe. I loved seeing Jonathan Crane again, very nice.
I, for one, didn't see Talia coming and kicked myself for it. I should have remembered that Ra's al'Ghul had a child and it was not Bane. I really liked seeing the echo between the "Lazarus Pit" and the abandoned well at Wayne Manor.
I'm definitely rewatching Batman Begins to see it in a different light.
Having watched all three in a row, I'm bothered by some discontinuity between Batman Begins and TDKR. If the League of Shadows had infiltrated every level of Gotham for Ras' plot, why didn't Talia have them at her disposal when she made her attempt? Surely they didn't all get rounded up after the end of Batman Begins.
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"freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order."
- Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Ed. v. Barnette
I finally got to see The Dark Knight Rises. Overall, I quite liked it. There were a couple of things that bothered me, though.
First, as has already been mentioned, Alfred's behavior seems really out of character.
But what really bugged me was Bruce Wayne's incredible stupidity early in the movie.
Okay, he knows that someone has hired a professional thief to acquire his fingerprints. This can't be good. So, does he do what any remotely intelligent person would do in his circumstances -- namely, immediately issue a decree that no transactions of any sort can be approved using fingerprint identification? No. Instead, he decides to wait and see what happens. That's just plain stupid, and not at all what I'd expect of any incarnation of Bruce Wayne.
Besides, who on Earth uses fingerprints to confirm high-level financial transactions? I'm not saying that nobody does, but it seems a spectacularly stupid way to do it. Why? Because 1.) it's actually pretty easy to get copies of most people's fingerprints, and 2.) fingerprints aren't as reliable for purposes of identification as most people think.
If you're going to use biometric data for identification, a retina scan is much more reliable, and much harder to fake.
I'll leave aside the absurdity of getting a 12-megaton bomb a safe distance from the city in only a minute or so.
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“The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.”
According to the lawyers at Law and the Multiverse, it's probable that the transactions that bankrupted Wayne may not have been legal.
Interesting.
It does make a mistake with regard to The Dark Knight, though. The Joker said he wasn't a schemer: a lie as part of a scheme to manipulate Harvey Dent, no less!
I always hated hearing people repeat that lie from Dark Knight as if it were supposed to be something we believed about The Joker, and yes, I have seen people do that. The character says he isn't a planner when he's in the midst of a ridiculously elaborate plan and soon to start on a more elaborate one, i.e. the thing with the ferries. Why would anyone, including Dent, believe him?
__________________
"freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order."
- Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Ed. v. Barnette
The Joker correctly identified himself as an agent of chaos. The heist in the beginning of the film should be the only evidence one needs to know how meticulous the Joker was. The scary part is he almost succeeded at every turn, and his one failure was by the skin of his teeth. He neatly dismantled Gotham's executive and judicial systems, broke the confidence that the people had in the same, turned Gotham's shining star into a vile mockery of justice, and though Batman didn't break his one rule, he did violate everyone's first amendment rights so he wouldn't have to break that rule.
If you think killing one judge and almost killing a mayor equates to dismantling the executive and judicial systems of a city, you've never lived in a big, corrupt city.
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"freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order."
- Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Ed. v. Barnette
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