A revolution in thought

[Doctor X]

The ability of fools to cite evidence that actually demonstrates they are full of shit.

--J.D.

[Doctor X]

The ability of fools to cite evidence that actually demonstrates they are full of shit.

--J.D.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I already told you I credited the examples to the individuals who said them.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

But did you really?

Yes.

I know there are lawyers who deal specifically with intellectual property on the internet. It's a whole new field.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

No shit! You don't say! Tell me more things that I don't obviously already know.

I brought that up to defend myself, not to teach you something you don't know.

If I happened to like a particular sentence that I read, and used it in a paragraph, does that count as plagiarism?

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Could be.

I don't think so because there's no copyright on a sentence in a public domain.

We all use sentences that others use. I'm not sure where the line is drawn. I'm definitely not stealing someone's copyrighted material.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Are you sure?

Positive.

I found this information below, but like I said, I don't think I'm guilty of plagiarism.

Is plagiarism illegal.

No. Plagiarism is neither a criminal nor civil offence. In fact, plagiarism is not a legal term and is not legally recognised. But breach of copyright or intellectual property rights (IPR) is illegal; if an act of plagiarism breaches copyright or IPR then it is illegal. Not every act of plagiarism is a breach of copyright. For example, you can plagiarise work that has no copyright.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

I never said that plagiarism is a crime, and I never said that you committed a crime. I asked whether you breached your legal duties arising from your contractual agreement with the company that would print your little book if anyone ever bought it.

I did not breach any legal duties Chuck. But if they were the slightest bit worried that someone would come back at them for damages, why wouldn't they have you sign a form saying that they are not responsible for plagiarism or copyright infringement. They have thousands of authors who could mistakenly use someone else's intellectual property without crediting them. I know I didn't do that.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

They put it in plain English in the terms of service to which you agreed. Right there in item 2.1. "You represent that (i) you are the sole copyright owner of the Work and all of its content." You consented to be legally bound by the terms of that document. Did you misrepresent yourself as the sole copyright owner of all of the content of the work, including the portions that you plagiarized?

Where did I plagiarize? Seriously. I added a sentence or two that I liked because it fit in the paragraph. So every single sentence that doesn't come from my brain has to be duly noted? I don't think so. I gave credit to everybody I could, without it being tedious and on the verge of ridiculous.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I tried giving everyone credit for their contribution.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Not an answer.

Why not?

They leave everything up to the author.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

No, they don't. They do not leave the theft of intellectual property "up to the author." It is specifically proscribed in the contractual agreement binding author and publisher. Did you not read the document before consenting to be bound by it?

It was so long ago, I don't remember what it said. All I know is that I'm an honest person and would not steal someone else's intellectual property.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I did not maliciously steal intellectual property that legally belongs to someone.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Not an answer. Also, you seem to think that malicious intent would be important for some reason. It isn't.

You're right. I didn't steal anything from anyone. Malicious or not has no bearing on whether a crime was committed.

You seem really angry.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Maybe I don't like thieves?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I don't like thieves either. I don't consider myself a thief.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Doesn't matter. I don't consider myself angry.

I hope not. I wouldn't want to be the cause.

I never said I was a lawyer,

Originally Posted by ChuckF

You don't have to be a lawyer. You just have to be not a liar.

I don't think of myself as a liar.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Don't care.

I thought this discussion was because you do care. Look, either I am or I'm not, and for all intents and purposes, I'm not.

and I never misrepresented who I am, at least not intentionally.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

I never said that you misrepresented who you were. I suspected you misrepresented your little book to your publishers though, who reasonably relied upon your knowing misrepresentation.

I did not misrepresent myself Chuck.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Are you sure? Did you represent yourself as the sole copyright owner of the work and all it scontent? Did you represent the work as not not plagiarized?

Yes, unless you call copying one or two sentences that I really liked and didn't give the source, as plagiarism. I don't think it is. I wouldn't want to think of myself as a plagiarist.

I'm sorry that you've gotten a bad taste in your mouth.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Sorry you're a plagiarist.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by thedoc

Why don't you remind us what that observation was, or give us the page number?

Pages 46-59. If you can't point out what his observations were, we can't move forward.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Doctor X

Given that all of his observations were rather disproven, forgive me if my enthusiasm for a repeat of her lying and FAIL has wanned.

--J.D.

His observations have not been disproven Doctor X. You don't know what you're talking about.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by thedoc

And possably a criminal? Doesn't lend much to your credability.

You can make up anything you want to satisfy an agenda. Look how everyone chopped up the book to the point where it didn't even resemble the book that I know, for the sake of making Lessans look wrong.

[wildernesse]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Where did I plagiarize? Seriously. I added a sentence or two that I liked because it fit in the paragraph. So every single sentence that doesn't come from my brain has to be duly noted? I don't think so. I gave credit to everybody I could, without it being tedious and on the verge of ridiculous.

If it is not your original idea, then you need to give credit to the person whose idea it is. Otherwise it is plagiarism. If you don't have any original ideas, then, yes, citing will verge on the ridiculous.

Yes, unless you call copying one or two sentences that I really liked and didn't give the source, as plagiarism. I don't think it is. I wouldn't want to think of myself as a plagiarist.

Yes, copying one or two sentences and not giving the source is plagiarism. Taking credit for an idea that is not your own is plagiarism, and length of expression of that idea is neither here nor there.

[LadyShea]

LOL the Legal Eagles are in the house.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I don't think so because there's no copyright on a sentence in a public domain.

Is that you, Judith Griggs?

[LadyShea]

She maybe went to school with Judith Griggs?

Look peacegirl, the list of quotes on pages 288 and 299 are clearly and proveably not the result of your original research or compilation. Though the quotes are attributed to people, they are not properly cited so may be falsely attributed or flat out made up. Just including that list of quotes is plagiarism, and without proper citation you can't tell if they are true, which may mean you are also guilty of libel if they are in fact false.

You also seem to be admitting to lifting whole sentences and ideas from others that you didn't source/cite.

Look in any well researched non-fiction book and you will see lots of citations everywhere, then an extensive bibliography or notes section. I grabbed a non-fiction book* randomly off my library shelf, opened the Notes section, and see that Chapter 8 alone has 49 citations

Here is a good resource for citing
Citing Sources

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Yes, unless you call copying one or two sentences that I really liked and didn't give the source, as plagiarism. I don't think it is. I wouldn't want to think of myself as a plagiarist.

You are a plagiarist if you copied even a single sentence without proper citation

Plagiarism.org : Learning Center : Plagiarism Definitions, Tips on avoiding Plagiarism, Guidelines for proper citation, & Help Identifying Plagiarism

If I change the words, do I still have to cite the source?

Changing only the words of an original source is NOT sufficient to prevent plagiarism. You must cite a source whenever you borrow ideas as well as words.

If I cite the source, can I still be accused of plagiarism?

You are allowed to borrow ideas or phrases from other sources provided you cite them properly and your usage is consistent with the guidelines set by fair use laws. As a rule, however, you should be careful about borrowing too liberally -- if the case can be made that your work consists predominantly of someone else's words or ideas, you may still be susceptible to charges of plagiarism. Also, if you follow the words of a source too closely, and do not use quotation marks, it can be considered plagiarism even if you cite the source.

So, while it not seem like a big deal to you, and while you may think we are making mountains out of molehills or whatever, this once again indicates a high level of thoughtlessness and sloppiness. People consider the source when evaluating the ideas offered by that source.

If you have no problem with people dismissing the book as a whole based on this poor scholarship, then keep on minimizing these issues. If you have no problem being a plagiarist then do nothing.


*Culture of Fear by Barry Glassner

[davidm]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I don't think so because there's no copyright on a sentence in a public domain.

Is that right, asshat?

Is this another "fact" that Daddy taught you, maybe?



Words posted online are protected by copyright.

Fuckwit.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by wildernesse

If it is not your original idea, then you need to give credit to the person whose idea it is. Otherwise it is plagiarism. If you don't have any original ideas, then, yes, citing will verge on the ridiculous.

Yes, copying one or two sentences and not giving the source is plagiarism. Taking credit for an idea that is not your own is plagiarism, and length of expression of that idea is neither here nor there.

First of all, there is no originality in an idea that I copied. I only copied a sentence structure (and I would love to credit someone for this, but I can't credit everyone. I would credit my very own mother for giving me the ability to copy her sentence structure. Is that also part of this? Maybe she should sue me too ). Since you are pure in your written expression, I need to ask you if every word that comes out of your mouth is original, and if not, did you cite the source? Please don't lie wildernesse. Why should I have to reinvent the wheel each and every time I write a sentence? I give general credit to anyone who has contributed to the book in a quote or in a book. I think that's enough. I did not break any copyright laws. If you think that I'm so horrible, then let's end this conversation right now. Please call Trafford, or write to them, and have me prosecuted. I won't blame anyone, but this conversation will be over for obvious reasons.

[LadyShea]

I only copied an expresson of an idea that fit what I was saying

Of course several people can have similar ideas, and some may even express them similarly, but if you "copy" someone else's expression of the idea, that's plagiarism.

Why should I have to reinvent the wheel, if I'm not in college, and I'm not breaking any laws?

You may be breaking laws, such as copyright, intellectual property and possibly libel

That would mean everything you post that came from someone else, you have to cite. I'm sure you are not original in every single thing you say.

If she didn't write it out of her brain, but instead copied, or knowingly paraphrased it from a published source, she would cite it.

I only copied a sentence structure (and I would love to credit someone for this, but I can't credit everyone. I would credit my very own mother for giving me the ability to copy her sentence structure. Is that also part of this?

No, using your mother's verbal phrasing isn't part of this; direct quotes should be accurately attributed and cited, and phrases/sentences that come from a published work should be properly sourced and cited.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Of course several people can have similar ideas, and some may even express them similarly, but if you "copy" someone else's expression of the idea, that's plagiarism.

You may be breaking laws, such as copyright, intellectual property and possibly libel

If she didn't write it out of her brain, but instead copied, or knowingly paraphrased it, she would cite it.

I did not cite an original idea LadyShea. I would not do that. I would not want someone to plagiarize my father's words. Are you kidding me? I know where to draw the line. I am not a fraud, or someone who would take someone's original ideas and make them my own. I'm taken aback by the mere thought. Don't you know me by now?

[LadyShea]

Once again the list of quotes on pages 288 and 299 of your book are clearly and proveably not the result of your original research or compilation. Though the quotes are attributed to people, they are not properly cited so may be falsely attributed or flat out made up. Just including that list of quotes is plagiarism, and without proper citation you can't tell if they are true, which may mean you are also guilty of libel if they are in fact false.

You also seem to be admitting to lifting whole sentences and ideas from others that you didn't source/cite.

Look in any well researched non-fiction book and you will see lots of citations everywhere, then an extensive bibliography or notes section. I grabbed a non-fiction book* randomly off my library shelf, opened the Notes section, and see that Chapter 8 alone has 49 citations

Here is a good resource for citing
Citing Sources

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Yes, unless you call copying one or two sentences that I really liked and didn't give the source, as plagiarism. I don't think it is. I wouldn't want to think of myself as a plagiarist.

You are a plagiarist if you copied even a single sentence without proper citation

Plagiarism.org : Learning Center : Plagiarism Definitions, Tips on avoiding Plagiarism, Guidelines for proper citation, & Help Identifying Plagiarism

If I change the words, do I still have to cite the source?

Changing only the words of an original source is NOT sufficient to prevent plagiarism. You must cite a source whenever you borrow ideas as well as words.

If I cite the source, can I still be accused of plagiarism?

You are allowed to borrow ideas or phrases from other sources provided you cite them properly and your usage is consistent with the guidelines set by fair use laws. As a rule, however, you should be careful about borrowing too liberally -- if the case can be made that your work consists predominantly of someone else's words or ideas, you may still be susceptible to charges of plagiarism. Also, if you follow the words of a source too closely, and do not use quotation marks, it can be considered plagiarism even if you cite the source.

So, while it not seem like a big deal to you, and while you may think we are making mountains out of molehills or whatever, this once again indicates a high level of thoughtlessness and sloppiness. People consider the source when evaluating the ideas offered by that source.

If you have no problem with people dismissing the book as a whole based on this poor scholarship, then keep on minimizing these issues. If you have no problem being a plagiarist then do nothing.


*Culture of Fear by Barry Glassner

[peacegirl]

I only copied an expresson of an idea that fit what I was saying

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Of course several people can have similar ideas, and some may even express them similarly, but if you "copy" someone else's expression of the idea, that's plagiarism.

I know in my heart of hearts that I would never use someone's original ideas and call them my own. If someone said, this is my sentence, I would give them credit.

Why should I have to reinvent the wheel, if I'm not in college, and I'm not breaking any laws?

Originally Posted by LadyShea

You may be breaking laws, such as copyright, intellectual property and possibly libel

I don't see where I could be charged for libel, which is a damaging statement that is meant to harm the reputation of the person about whom it is made.

That would mean everything you post that came from someone else, you have to cite. I'm sure you are not original in every single thing you say.

Originally Posted by Ladyshea

If she didn't write it out of her brain, but instead copied, or knowingly paraphrased it from a published source, she would cite it.

If you want, I will give you the sentences that were not completely mine. These sentences had absolutely nothing to do with Lessans or what he discovered.

I only copied a sentence structure (and I would love to credit someone for this, but I can't credit everyone. I would credit my very own mother for giving me the ability to copy her sentence structure. Is that also part of this?

Originally Posted by Ladyshea

No, using your mother's verbal phrasing isn't part of this; direct quotes should be accurately attributed and cited, and phrases/sentences that come from a published work should be properly sourced and cited.

These quotes were not published, and for the most part I gave everyone credit where I could. I admit that all of my sentences did not come from my originality. Now what? Do you throw out the book? Do you put me in prison for dishonesty? Will I burn in hell? Will you not read the book? Will you consider me a fraud? Can you tell me in all honesty that you never copied a sentence from someone else? I am not a malicious person, and if I felt that someone got hurt from anything I did, I would feel responsible and would try to repair it in any way that I could. What would you want me to pay for my mistake?

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by davidm

Is that right, asshat?

Is this another "fact" that Daddy taught you, maybe?



Words posted online are protected by copyright.

Fuckwit.

You must care more about your slander, than you do about getting real answers. Off you go to devils (ignore) island. Bye david, have a good time there, and if you can send me a postcared from time to time.

[ChuckF]

peacegirl, proper citation of other people's ideas and words, in addition to being the right thing to do and a legal obligation under the terms of the contract to which you agreed to be bound, is just something that authors who wish to be taken seriously do as a matter of course. This is not something we just made up in this thread. It is one thing to write on a message board. It is another thing to try to hold yourself out as offering some kind of serious work. This is virtually a threshold requirement for credibility, and one that you fail to meet, even before turning to the bizarre nonsense that constitutes the text itself.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

These quotes were not published, and for the most part I gave everyone credit where I could. I admit that all of my sentences did not come from my originality. Now what? Do you throw out the book? Do you put me in prison for dishonesty? What would you like me to do to pay for my mistake?

Quit with the histrionics.

I don't want you thrown in jail or to pay anything because I have not been harmed. Other people may feel harmed by inclusion of their words in your book without being sourced. Others may feel harmed if their names are attached to something they didn't say. Chances are they will never see it, though, and so you will never have to worry about legal consequences.

That being said I think you are a sloppy researcher and sloppy writer and sloppy thinker. My opinion of you has been informed by our discussions in this thread, and by the book itself. My opinion carries no force of law though.

I did the best I could considering what I knew about citing written works. If I made a mistake, will I burn in hell?

I don't believe in hell, so can't answer that. You have to live with your own conscience...so knowing what you know now, do you remain comfortable publishing the book as it is now? If so, there's your answer

Will you not read the book?

Though you refuse to believe me, I have read a large portion of the book. I will not do so again, however, though I may refer to it for discussion points.

Will you consider me a total fraud?

I already stated my opinion of you as related to your work with the book. You may be a perfectly lovely person in all other ways, however.

Can you tell me in all honesty that you never copied a sentence from someone else to support your thesis?

If I knowingly copied anything, I cited it. Of course my brain has been informed by multiple things I have read and heard, and it's quite possible some phrase or another I utter or type will come out of my memory banks as a whole. My discussions however, will mostly fall under Fair Use*, and so are not the same as knowingly borrowing from another source for a published work.

I am not a malicious person, and if I felt that someone got hurt from anything I did, I would feel so terribly responsible that I would try to repair it in any way that I could.

I have no way of knowing if someone might be hurt by your use of their words or name.

You could, if you are worried, look up the people whose names are attached to the quotes you lifted, and see if they are okay with their quote and name being used. Dr. Charles E. Page (one of the quoted people) apparently has a practice in Durango, Colorado and his contact info is easily found through Google


*

Fair use - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

[wildernesse]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

These quotes were not published, and for the most part I gave everyone credit where I could. I admit that all of my sentences did not come from my originality. Now what? Do you throw out the book? Do you put me in prison for dishonesty? What would you like me to do to pay for my mistake?

If the quotes were not published, then how did you find them to include in the book?

This is another example that supports you being ignorant, dishonest, and lacking in any credibility. Previously, people have told you ways that you could take steps to improve your presentation and understanding. You have always provided excuses why you will not. So, if it is any consolation, this conversation about plagiarism, libel, etc., is not harming your position with the posters here, as our opinions are likely already formed about you and the book.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

If you want, I will give you the sentences that were not completely mine. These sentences had absolutely nothing to do with Lessans or what he discovered.

.

First you say that the material you copied fit what was said in the book, and then you say that it had nothing to do with the book?

[thedoc]

In another thread on this forum I posted my opinion of a book I read and quoted 2 paragraphs from that book, with the proper citation. Prior to that I had purchased the book from the author, and via. E-mail had asked permission to post those specific paragraphs on the forum. The author granted permission and thanked me for promoting the book, that is the right and proper, and legal, way to do it.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by wildernesse

. So, if it is any consolation, this conversation about plagiarism, libel, etc., is not harming your position with the posters here, as our opinions are likely already formed about you and the book.

Surely you're not seriously implying that you don't like the book?


PS. how's the baby coming along, I have 7 grandchildren the youngest is 1 yr. 5 mo. Got names picked, and lots of stuff ready?

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

She maybe went to school with Judith Griggs?

Look peacegirl, the list of quotes on pages 288 and 299 are clearly and proveably not the result of your original research or compilation. Though the quotes are attributed to people, they are not properly cited so may be falsely attributed or flat out made up. Just including that list of quotes is plagiarism, and without proper citation you can't tell if they are true, which may mean you are also guilty of libel if they are in fact false.

Not true at all, and I refuse to run away with my tail between my legs as if I'm guilty of something. By the way, page 288 is blank.

As far as p. 299, I am not guilty of anything. I gave everyone credit. I don't know where you're coming from LadyShea. Are you just out to win the argument?

Originally Posted by LadyShea

You also seem to be admitting to lifting whole sentences and ideas from others that you didn't source/cite.

Look in any well researched non-fiction book and you will see lots of citations everywhere, then an extensive bibliography or notes section. I grabbed a non-fiction book* randomly off my library shelf, opened the Notes section, and see that Chapter 8 alone has 49 citations

Here is a good resource for citing
Citing Sources

But most of these citations involved research. Of course you cite someone's research. As far as this book is concerned, this knowledge is unprecedented, so how could there be any research?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Yes, unless you call copying one or two sentences that I really liked and didn't give the source, as plagiarism. I don't think it is. I wouldn't want to think of myself as a plagiarist.

You are a plagiarist if you copied even a single sentence without proper citation

Plagiarism.org : Learning Center : Plagiarism Definitions, Tips on avoiding Plagiarism, Guidelines for proper citation, & Help Identifying Plagiarism

If I change the words, do I still have to cite the source?

Changing the words of an original source is NOT sufficient proof of plagiarism. You must cite a source whenever you borrow ideas as well as words.

If I cite the source, can I still be accused of plagiarism?

You are allowed to borrow ideas or phrases from other sources provided you cite them properly and your usage is consistent with the guidelines set by fair use laws. As a rule, however, you should be careful about borrowing too liberally -- if the case can be made that your work consists predominantly of someone else's words or ideas, you may still be susceptible to charges of plagiarism. Also, if you follow the words of a source too closely, and do not use quotation marks, it can be considered plagiarism even if you cite the source.

So, while it not seem like a big deal to you, and while you may think we are making mountains out of molehills or whatever, this once again indicates a high level of thoughtlessness and sloppiness. People consider the source when evaluating the ideas offered by that source.

If you have no problem with people dismissing the book as a whole based on this poor scholarship, then keep on minimizing these issues. If you have no problem being a plagiarist then do nothing.


*Culture of Fear by Barry Glassner[/QUOTE]

[LadyShea]

That's totally Fair Use, thedoc, you needn't have gotten permission. It was nice and extra careful that you did, though.