Ross Kemp on Gangs: New Zealand

[Petra]

Ross Kemp's award winning series on some of the world's most notorious gangs takes a look at NZ's Mongrel Mob.

(Mongrel Mob members only agreed to be filmed after they signed a contract with the British producers preventing the episode from screening in NZ.)

And here's the episode broken down into 6 short parts:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

[Arrogant-One]

I can't say I know a great deal about the New Zealand situation, but I suspect that a more liberal government and a poor immigration and multi-cultural policy may have resulted in some of the social ills New Zealand now confronts.

By contrast, Australia has done well with a moderate but progressive multi-cultural policy and strict immigration controls. The difference is day and night.

Best

AO

[fragment]

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

I can't say I know a great deal about the New Zealand situation, but I suspect that a more liberal government and a poor immigration and multi-cultural policy may have resulted in some of the social ills New Zealand now confronts.

Yeah, Maori would probably be better off if they'd managed to place strict limits on the number of white people who came here.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by fragment

Yeah, Maori would probably be better off if they'd managed to place strict limits on the number of white people who came here.

Hmmm...That situation seems to hold true worldwide.

HOMELAND SECURITY

PROTECTING AGAINST TERRORISM SINCE 1492

[Petra]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

HOMELAND SECURITY

PROTECTING AGAINST TERRORISM SINCE 1492

And even before 1492, too.

Well before.


Before international colonialism, there was interregional colonialism. Intertribal as opposed to interracial, I guess. I'm not making excuses for the international age of colonialism, by any means, but it was nothing new at it's heart - just on a much larger scale.

And Arrogant-One,

I suspect that a more liberal government and a poor immigration and multi-cultural policy may have resulted in some of the social ills New Zealand now confronts.

Can you please explain this further, 'cos it sounds like crap to me?

By contrast, Australia has done well with a moderate but progressive multi-cultural policy and strict immigration controls. The difference is day and night.

[Shelli]

I just have one thing to say...

show spoiler

Tiggerdamn you, Petra, for posting this thread! I stayed up too late last night watching all the vids.

Oh, and...

, Petra for posting this. Very informative but also very sad.

People..

[fragment]

Come to think of it, Aptornis (among other things) would have down well to have put the brakes on human immigration to these isles, too.

[Petra]

It is sad, isn't it? Disgusting, too.

I hate those gangs. I'll not cry for them should they implode due to meth. The sooner, the better.

[ZEZOZE]

Originally Posted by Petra

I'll not cry for them should they implode due to meth. The sooner, the better.

one person's sad epidemic is another person's deserved retribution

Originally Posted by InTheServiceOfZeke

one person's sad epidemic is another person's deserved retribution

Or, if the lunkheads have cameras with them, YouTube fodder.

[Arrogant-One]

Originally Posted by Petra

And Arrogant-One,
Can you please explain this further, 'cos it sounds like crap to me?

Well, can you explain why so many Kiwi's want to come to Australia? Most claim that they feel safer here, and have better economic opportunities here.

Violence and gangs are far more problematic in NZ than in Australia.

I think a loose immigration system may perhaps be one aspect contributing to that problem. However, I don't know if statistics are kept to provide any further analysis, so its just speculation.

The US and Australia have demonstrated that the best immigration policies are the one's which adopt a melting pot attitude, that is new Australian immigrants are expected to conform to Australian values. That is still entirely consistent with multiculturalism however, its just a different form of multiculturalism.

Hope that cleared things up,

Best

AO

[fragment]

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

Violence and gangs are far more problematic in NZ than in Australia.

I think a loose immigration system may perhaps be one aspect contributing to that problem.

Did you watch the linked vids? Did you notice that, for the most part, the gang members in it are descendants of the first people to settle here, 800-odd years ago; and that some of those gang members explicitly claimed a connection to Maori cultural values? Given this, how on Earth do you think any immigration policy of the last few decades has anything to do with gangs?

Do you even know what NZs immigration policies are?

[Petra]

Yeah, really! Our immigrants are not represented in gang culture at all. I think some from Hong Kong may have triad connections back in China, but overall they are hardly a blip on our crime and gang stats.

Pacific Islander youth from South Auckland have started to get involved with gangs a bit over the last few years, but for the most part they are not involved with either Black Power or the MMM, and Maori (particularly those of the gang mentality) tend to be a bit racist toward their Polynesian brothers.

I have no idea how to deal with the gang problem here - and Turiana Turia, leader of the Maori Party, thinks they're all just lovely boys at heart, or something, happily making excuses for them. Even Pita Sharples, who I have a lot of respect for, makes excuses for them.

And the gang members themselves are quick to blame society and the system and all those other amorphous scapegoats instead of their own damned backgrounds of family dysfunction, drunken sexual abuse, and domestic violence, and their own repeating of that fucked up pattern with their own spouses and offspring.

My great grandfather would be rolling in his grave if he could see what goes on in his old neighbourhood today.

And it's funny how Black Power and the MMM both lay blame on pakeha society, yet they are archenemies and fight each other brutally. They're so full of shit, those guys - primitive, tribal, retarded thugs. For the most part, anyway - some of the higher ups in the gang organisation have studied law and accounting, etc, while in prison. Some of the older ones will use gang money to fund some of the smarter younger ones through degrees that are useful to them instead of just making them 'soldiers'.

Here's an old article about the MMM in Rotorua: Doing the gangster rap in Rotorua - 08 Apr 2006 - NZ Herald: New Zealand National news

[Petra]

Wow. Not 3 minutes walk from my house we had an incident just now.

Some armed thug holed up in an unused warehouse with the armed offenders squad smokin' him out. I took the wrong damned lens to start with, but given that it was so close to home I was able to race back and get a better lens for the job, while ogling the Daily Post's mammoth glass. Envy!!!

McIntyre Ave has a few mob members living there, so I'd be interested to know what was going on. Police weren't saying much.

At one point, a big boom went off, and I wondered who had the cannon, but it was tear gas.

I'll post pics later, after all the Mother's Day and birthday lunches an' stuff.

That was pretty intense. Welcome to New Zealand!

[Arrogant-One]

Originally Posted by fragment

Did you watch the linked vids? Did you notice that, for the most part, the gang members in it are descendants of the first people to settle here, 800-odd years ago; and that some of those gang members explicitly claimed a connection to Maori cultural values? Given this, how on Earth do you think any immigration policy of the last few decades has anything to do with gangs?

Do you even know what NZs immigration policies are?

The answer to your first query (in blue text) is no. Accordingly, a response to all other queries in your post could not be answered as they flowed from an incorrect presumption premised in your first query.

Best

AO

[fragment]

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

The answer to your first query (in blue text) is no. Accordingly, a response to all other queries in your post could not be answered as they flowed from an incorrect presumption premised in your first query.

Untrue. You could easily answer these two questions without having watched the vids:
1) Do you know what NZs immigration policies are?
2) Given that you have now been informed that the gang members in the videos were predominantly Maori, how do you think immigration policies could have had anything to do with the behaviour of these gang members?

[ZEZOZE]

where are the pics??

[Arrogant-One]

Untrue. You could easily answer these two questions without having watched the vids:

1) Do you know what NZs immigration policies are?
2) Given that you have now been informed that the gang members in the videos were predominantly Maori, how do you think immigration policies could have had anything to do with the behaviour of these gang members?

LOL,

The context in which those questions were asked suggested that I needed to watch the clips to be able to answer them. Only if they had been asked point blank would that not have been the case.

But to progress things along, the answer to your first question above is yes. I know a bit about the NZ immigration system, and I know that its a lot easier for people to get residency in NZ than in Australia.

In answer to your second question, I don't think I ever corralated NZ's loose immigration system with 'gang violence'.

Best

AO

[fragment]

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

But to progress things along, the answer to your first question above is yes. I know a bit about the NZ immigration system, and I know that its a lot easier for people to get residency in NZ than in Australia.

Then you'll also know that there are several categories of migrant. I presume it's the same in Australia. For which types of migrants is it easier to get residency in NZ than Australia?

In answer to your second question, I don't think I ever corralated NZ's loose immigration system with 'gang violence'.

Right, so your initial response in this thread was, in fact, entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Nice. But since you've already gone ahead and interrupted in order to use this thread as a soapbox for unrelated issues, please feel free to enlighten us as to which non-gang related "social ills New Zealand now confronts" are a result of "a more liberal government and a poor immigration and multi-cultural policy", and explain the connection between the two.

[Arrogant-One]

Originally Posted by fragment

For which types of migrants is it easier to get residency in NZ than Australia?

Generally all skilled visas are more difficult to obtain in Australia. In addition, New Zealand awards greater emphasis to having family connections in the country than Australia does. That means someone in, for instance, India who wants to immigrate to either Australia or New Zealand, and who has family in both countries, would have a higher liklihood of success applying for residency in NZ as his family connections would count for more in the process there. Lastly, New Zealand has more generous intakes of refugees than does Australia.

Best

AO

[fragment]

Cool. I disagree with you on the relative generosity of the refugee programmes (our intake's seems embarrassingly low to me), but the numbers are pretty small compared to other migrants. The rest seems reasonable, so let's agree that it's easier for skilled migrants with family connections to get into New Zealand than Australia. On the face of it these don't sound like the kinds of people likely to be responsible for the undefined and not gang-related "social ills" you're talking about. Any chance of explaining the connection?

[Arrogant-One]

Originally Posted by fragment

Cool. .... On the face of it these don't sound like the kinds of people likely to be responsible for the undefined and not gang-related "social ills" you're talking about. Any chance of explaining the connection?

Probably not necessary. This thread seems to have come full circle nicely, and canvassed all the major issues, thanks to us

Best

AO

[Petra]

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

This thread seems to have come full circle nicely, and canvassed all the major issues...

Zeke: Sorry, I had unexpected happenings and couldn't get both time and energy to align into action. I'll try for later today though (if the day goes smoothly, that is!).