Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

[Miss Shelby]

Originally Posted by seebs

... how did it change? i thought this was the title it had originally.

I don’t believe so. I think originally vm had titled it more generically. I cannot remember exactly. So I won’t speculate with my own words.

It is just that now it does not imply something even sided. It’s more IF YOU BLINDLY DEFEND Israel You Suck and Obviously Have Not Been on an American College Campus Since WW I

[Miss Shelby]

Okay so I used my own words there

[Miss Shelby]

But you know I could easily be wrong. It may very well be my own brain and the way I first read it as opposed to how I read it now

[seebs]

I thought it started out roughly like this.

I dunno. Everyone I see that isn't, like, completely fucking insane, is really pretty fucking done with both "sides". Genocide is bad. Terrorism is also bad. I think most people condemn both and are sick of watching each side explain that the other side forced them to do a cartoonishly evil thing.

[michio]

Very quickly because I'm tired and I need to stop looking at this. I'm being as charitable as possible, and not trying to strawman people defending Israel.

Blaming Hamas:
- Geoconfirmed on twitter claims rocket fired from Gaza was intercepted mid-air above the hospital, shrapnel then falls onto the hospital. They are implying this is what blew up the hospital. I tried to look up how they found this out, and I could not find this out.
- The al Qassem Brigades were apparently shelling northern Israel at the same time the blast happened. They do have significant firepower like the R160. I've seen this mentioned a lot. And yeah, various groups operating within Gaza do have significant firepower, smuggled from other countries like Iran.
- Another claim is the rocket engine failed, then dropped onto the hospital intact, blowing it up.
- The hospital explosion didn't need a large payload to cause that much damage. Hospitals have O2 tanks, also it ignited munitions and weapons stored at the hospital.

Blaming Israel:
- Incredible amount of misinformation here honestly. For example saying Israel confirmed they did it, then backtracked when they learned the death tool. I haven't been able to find evidence of this except for sketchy screenshots of social media posts. People are mentioning Hananya Naftali a lot, who wasn't an Israeli spokesperson like people were claiming, he was basically a blogger. I would ignore all of this facebook/twitter gossip.
- The most damning evidence I have for blaming Israel is the press conference the hospital held immediately after being bombed. More than 1 person, meaning a doctor or hospital employee/volunteer of some kind, has said Israel has both verbally warned and physically warned with a minor shelling that it would bomb the hospitals. Both true.

Listen to this from an English speaker: Gazan officials held a press conference amid the bodies in the hospital bombed by Israel - YouTube

Story and evidence that the hospital was already shelled 3 days ago: Just a moment...

Al Jazeera has also reported that a senior health official corroborated that yes, Israel did shell them prior to the bombing.

Israel previously fired artillery shells at hospital as warning: Official
A senior health official in Gaza has said that Israel had fired two artillery shells as a “warning” at al-Ahli hospital, days before it bombed it.

Undersecretary of the Ministry of Health Yousef Abu al-Rish said the hospital was first attacked on Saturday evening. A day later, the Israeli army called the hospital’s director and told him: “We warned you yesterday with two shells” and asked for the evacuation of the facility, according to Abu al-Rish.

Speaking at a news conference surrounded by bodies of victims, Abu al-Rish held up pictures of the exploded munitions and the damage they left.

“The only place in the world where people are warned with artillery shells is the Gaza Strip,” he said.

Apparently he said this during the press conference after the bombing, which was not in English so I can't confirm.

Israel did warn people multiple times in the past week it would bomb the general area, and also specifically certain hospitals. Again, I'm tired and don't want to dig up anymore links, but I'll give you one:
Gaza: Forcing patients to flee hospitals a ‘death sentence’ warns WHO | UN News

Israel has warned 22 hospitals it would bomb them. People have been pleading for them not to.

-------------

Israel has succeeded in having people bicker about minutia and forgetting about words and events from literally days prior, as well as ignoring all the other crimes against humanity Israel has done in the past. Honestly, I was starting to doubt myself, which is why I went on the hunt for information.

I want you to watch the video I posted above. Who do you believe, Israel, or that brave doctor who volunteered to be there to help Gazans?

[michio]

Originally Posted by seebs

I thought it started out roughly like this.

I dunno. Everyone I see that isn't, like, completely fucking insane, is really pretty fucking done with both "sides". Genocide is bad. Terrorism is also bad. I think most people condemn both and are sick of watching each side explain that the other side forced them to do a cartoonishly evil thing.

Israel has succeeded in bombarding us with information, making us question absolutely everything, so we have to fall back to, "I just want the violence to stop, both sides need to stop." They are distracting us from what they are doing.

Don't fall for this. Right now, it's one side. Hamas did an extremely fucked up thing, and yes, they have been continuing their attacks on Israel, and yes, they have hostages, who might all be dead at this point. But responding with genocide is beyond overreaction. There is ONE party that can end this today, and that is Israel.

Israel has openly spoken about how information warfare is critical to their operations. They literally people pay to astroturf online communities, they disseminate fake information, they are no doubt now using AI-powered bots that can respond intelligently and organically in social media posts to muddy the waters and cause confusion.

In that video I linked above of the doctor trying to tell the world it was Israel, the comments are full of people blaming Hamas. I'm sorry, but this is some 1984 shit. Just fucking unreal.

[Miss Shelby]

Originally Posted by seebs

I thought it started out roughly like this.

I dunno. Everyone I see that isn't, like, completely fucking insane, is really pretty fucking done with both "sides". Genocide is bad. Terrorism is also bad. I think most people condemn both and are sick of watching each side explain that the other side forced them to do a cartoonishly evil thing.

If both sides suck which do you pick? Seems to me this convo is a way to pick sides but really not. You there, up above me, are you literally posting opposing views as though they are your own. Why the fuck are you doing that?

[michio]

Originally Posted by Miss Shelby

If both sides suck which do you pick? Seems to me this convo is a way to pick sides but really not. You there, up above me, are you literally posting opposing views as though they are your own. Why the fuck are you doing that?

Are you okay? Lol. If you're talking about me, I just wanted the truth.

It doesn't matter though. I'm so doom-pilled at this point. I naively thought this hospital bombing would be the point where this all stops, maybe Israel and the West would step up and offer a ceasefire, but it looks like the violence will continue.

[Miss Shelby]

You really think there is going to be a conflict resolution? Are you fucking stupid? Yes I am talking to you.

[michio]

Originally Posted by Miss Shelby

You really think there is going to be a conflict resolution?

No, hence why I mentioned I'm doom-pilled.

Are you fucking stupid? Yes I am talking to you.

Yell at me more mommy, I like that.

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by Miss Shelby

Why did you change the title of this thread?

The title of the thread has not changed. You can see this by looking at the first reply - yours - where the post title is automatically filled with "Re: " + the thread title.

Maybe you will one day learn to question your own knee-jerk assumptions when a thought enters your head, instead of blaming other people for them.

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by michio

@ShottleBop

My bad, I was being sarcastic and mocking people saying this attack was Hamas. A lot gets lost in translation over the internet.

Gotta admit, you fooled me too. "Oh no, michio has gone over to the insane side."

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by michio

Come the fuck on.

Useful reaction to the state of pretty much everything.

[michio]

More information coming out that is damning for people saying this was an attack by Israel. It's now daytime, and we can see the damage, it's nothing: https://twitter.com/qudsn/status/171...636575/photo/1

This is absurd lmao. I have so many questions:
- Where did this 500 dead figure come from?
- I know at least the WSJ verified the video showing the strike, and as far as I know, that was the only video verified?
- I'm now questioning the sound in the video, despite the WSJ "verifying" the video. Was potentially edited in.
- What was that video I saw with the bodies laying in a field outside the hospital? Multiple trustworthy journalists spread this video.
- The post-bombing press conference showed bodies, piled up around them, showing the damage done. There were maybe 40 bodies shown. Were those actually people killed in this supposed bombing? There's bombings happening everywhere and the bodies are piling up regardless. They could have pulled random body bags.
- I still trust the doctors speaking in that press conference. In the video I linked, he does claim a ceiling collapsed, and he went outside and saw bodies strewn about. I don't think he said anything about the hospital being destroyed so I don't think he's lying.

Israel said they were going to bomb the hospital, they have a history of doing such things, they shelled the hospital already as a warning which they do all the time, and they've already dropped at least 6000 bombs in a small urban area by their own admission.

There's good reason to not believe Israel based on their history and what they are doing as we speak. I trust the doctors speaking. I see the damage, it was nothing and someone lied.

Israel released an audio recording of supposedly 2 Hamas operatives discussing the failed launch. Who knows if it's legit, deepfakes are easy, or you can just hire 2 random people to say bullshit in a recording.

The burning munitions explanation seems bunk, along with the O2 canisters catching on fire.

Also Israel and Israel supporters were pushing old videos and making conclusions based on that.

I'm seeing people pushing the narrative that Israeli officials took credit for the attack, then retracted immediately after when they saw the casualty number. Proving this is hard unless there's some internet archive we can look at. Otherwise it's a "trust me bro" kind of situation. Also we now see that the death count was probably exaggerated. The social media post angle to criticize Israel is weak and looks dumb to pro-Israel people. We should stop running with that.

My conclusion which will probably change in 12-16 hours: Someone at the hospital made up bullshit & exaggerated in an attempt to engage in their own information warfare to drum up sympathy. The 24 hours news cycle rushed to be the first, because you have to, so everyone rolled with it for a bit. People asked enough questions to sow doubt, so claims were silently retracted.

There's little electricity in Gaza and it's an active killzone so it's hard to get information regardless.

Neither side has accurate information. Palestinians, Hamas, and Israel all have motivation to lie and exaggerate. This hospital "bombing" is going to be great propaganda for Israel showing the Palestinians/Hamas are lying, and embarrassing for a lot of people who ran with it (including me). This is going to be trotted out constantly in debates now. If this was Hamas' or the Palestinians' attempt at information warfare, then that was a complete L. It's idiotic to lie and exaggerate because Israel is unmatched in the propaganda department, and if they catch you doing this, they will use that against you very effectively. What a fuck up.

Also why lie? What Israel is already doing is a crime against humanity. There's no need to make shit up and give information warfare ammo to your enemy. Fuck man.

We've entered an information collapse and I don't know what the fuck to believe now. I'm sure new "information" will come out within 12 hours, shifting reality once more.

[michio]

Originally Posted by JoeP

Gotta admit, you fooled me too. "Oh no, michio has gone over to the insane side."

I deleted the post lol. Unfortunate, because now a bunch users read that and are going to be reading my posts about this with an eyebrow raised.

Also see my latest post, this might have actually been Hamas, but I have no idea what the fuck to believe now. I'm convinced by multiple contradictory things at the same time, so my brain is full of fuck.

It's 3:30 AM, what am I doing.

[viscousmemories]

The thread title hasn't changed since I posted the thread.

I haven't read any of these articles but I thought it interesting to compare headlines this morning.

The headline on Al Jazeera was "Biden meets with Netanyahu a day after 500 people killed in hospital attack". BBC says "Biden meets with Netanyahu as Gaza hospital blast overshadows event", AP News says "Biden pledges solidarity with Israelis and suggests ‘other team’ to blame for Gaza hospital blast", CNN: "Biden backs Netanyahu as hospital blast rocks region", Fox News: "Biden meets Netanyahu: We will continue to have Israel's back", NY Times: "Biden lands in Israel as hospital explosion convulses region", Financial Times: "Joe Biden tells Israel ‘other team’ appears to be behind deadly hospital explosion"

[ShottleBop]

Gaza Hospital Explosion: Gaza's damaged health care system will claim lives for years to come.

[michio]

So no new information, this explosion still makes no sense, and Biden is doing a good job being a pathetic cuck to Israel. This 500 dead figure doesn't make sense based on pictures of the damage, and repeating it just emboldens pro-Israel, pro-genocide people even more.

Al Jazeera and whoever lied about this hospital bombing fucked up. We're never going to hear the end of the fake hospital bombing.

[michio]

I'm already seeing people on twitter doubting video footage because they suspect that bomb footage could just be Hamas misfiring rockets and blowing themselves up. This is beyond frustrating, depressing, and laughable. Humans are so fucking stupid, what are we even doing?

Actual bomb footage: https://twitter.com/Sa91af/status/1714669634769572277

I don't know what happened at that hospital, but this is what I expect from "bomb footage", along with dozens of other horrifying videos and images.

I can't even view Joe Biden as a human anymore. Lower than a roach. The way he cucks out to Israel is one of the most pathetic, disgusting things I've ever seen. He keeps getting on camera, talking about HAMAS BAD, SAVE ISRAEL, over and over. No condemnation about innocent Palestinians being killed, aside from when he wants to blame Hamas. Goddamnit what a pathetic little bitch.

[Ari]

Something about truth and war, it's all making much more sense in that the failed rocket launch wasn't a ground failure or motor failure leaving the rocket gliding or tumbling but was either hit mid air or the motor exploded mid air. Dropping the warhead onto the hospital which killed hundreds but didn't do nearly the damage that was originally implied.

The whizz bang heard is sound of an aerodynamic object falling fast without tumbling, which while also describes a guided bomb quite well, could also just as easily be the front end of a rocket blown into the ground.

The doctors quote from the guardian, “In between cases I heard the screech of two missiles and then a loud explosion. The false ceiling in the operating room fell,”

Whichever sources ignored both the rocket and the 'false' part of that quote probably can't be trusted in the future to give accurate details.

[seebs]

https://tldr.nettime.org/@tomjenning...54077959117732

[michio]

Originally Posted by Ari

Something about truth and war, it's all making much more sense in that the failed rocket launch wasn't a ground failure or motor failure leaving the rocket gliding or tumbling but was either hit mid air or the motor exploded mid air. Dropping the warhead onto the hospital which killed hundreds but didn't do nearly the damage that was originally implied.

https://twitter.com/jacksonhinklle/s...RQJ6Vid9XaVyDg

I have no clue how to explain this, in light of all the other information. I'm just having fun with this at this point, since this will likely remain a mystery. People will just continue arguing until the news cycle moves on. Israel is about to begin their ground offensive, so that's when we stop talking about this.

- We KNOW Israel already shelled the hospital.
- Israel has been openly talking about bombing northern Gaza, including hospitals, leading up to the explosion. Why has everyone forgotten about this?
- The damage in the courtyard looks nothing like any other bomb footage I've seen where it looks like an F4 or F5 tornado rolled through the area. It just looked like a fire.
- We KNOW a substantial number of people died. This hinges on the fact that I trust the doctors that spoke after the explosion. The man that spoke English had a 1000 yard stare, he has seen some shit. I don't think they pulled in random bodies for a propaganda video. Was it 200? 500? 50? Doubt we'll ever get a solid number on that given how chaotic everything is.

My unhinged theory given the video I linked:

Israel did attempt to bomb the hospital, the bomb dropped but misfired, and simply burned up.

There did appear to be conflicting messages coming from Israel, probably due to some people thinking the bombing was successful, some people knowing about the misfire, and some people not knowing they were going to bomb the hospital. The initial propaganda was full of mixed messages until everyone shut the fuck up and waited for instructions on how to proceed.

Everyone keeps saying Hamas was firing a volley at the same time the hospital explosion happened, and could not have been a coincidence. Is it too much of a coincidence? Israel has dropped 1000s of bombs in under 2 weeks. And as far as I know, Hamas and other militant groups are also regularly launching volleys at Israel.

Unlikely but not impossible this was a huge coincidence, stranger things have happened.

I double-checked that bombs misfiring and simply burning up was a thing because I don't know anything about this.

Bombs and missiles can sometimes misfire or fail to detonate upon impact. This is commonly known as a "dud." There are several reasons why this can happen:

Mechanical Failure: Faulty fuses or impact sensors can fail to initiate the explosive material inside the bomb or missile.

Electronic Issues: Modern ordnance often has electronic systems. Malfunctions in these systems can prevent detonation.

Handling and Storage: Poorly stored or mishandled ordnance is more prone to malfunction.

Manufacturing Defects: Errors during the production process can lead to a dud.

Environmental Factors: Extreme temperature or moisture can affect the sensitive components.

Deflagration Instead of Detonation: When a bomb or missile fails to detonate fully but still burns, it is called "deflagration." This is contrasted with "detonation," where a shock wave is produced, causing a high-speed chemical reaction that releases a large amount of energy.

[erimir]

Originally Posted by michio

Also why lie? What Israel is already doing is a crime against humanity. There's no need to make shit up and give information warfare ammo to your enemy. Fuck man.

If it was an intentional lie, they succeeded in getting diplomatic meetings between Biden, Jordan, Egypt and the Palestinian Authority (Abbas) cancelled.

Regardless, I'm gonna have to say that your posts about this seem mostly like you have a pre-determined conclusion (Israel bombed the hospital) and are flailing about to explain why the evidence doesn't seem to support that. I came here expecting to see you backtracking.

The hospital parking lot was damaged, but cars just a few yards away appear to be merely dirty (from debris). The crater is pretty minor.

From what I've read, and what makes sense, a plausible explanation is that a Hamas rocket failed, landed in the parking lot, and due to the fuel, it caused a firebomb which caused some of the cars to ignite as well. Which would explain what was seen at night in combination with the hospital buildings appearing basically intact today. A missile warhead would have caused a larger crater.

Even the solar panels on the nearby buildings are intact.

I also don't agree with your view that Biden has made no statements that are sympathetic to Palestinians.

But politics are politics, and in the US, the populace is far more sympathetic to Israel. Additionally, the ball is more in Israel's court than Hamas's as they are the more powerful player. There is a diplomatic interest in retaining leverage with Israel if you are, in fact, interested in cooling things off. I don't see much reason to expect that if Biden came out and called Israel genocidaires, that this would therefore cause them to pull back. Meanwhile, it would only hurt him domestically. It might help his relations with Arab countries - but if he manages to get Israel to cool down and slow down, it probably will outweigh momentary condemnation if it's not backed up with action (and serious action against Israel is 1. unpopular in the US and 2. might require Congressional action that Biden can't control). Biden seems to have pretty consistently prioritized results over appearances, in my view. If being so publicly sympathetic towards Israel is what's necessary in order to deescalate the situation, is that not what you would prefer?

Biden warns Israelis against getting consumed by rage, noting that after 9/11, the US "sought justice and got justice, we also made mistakes."

"The vast majority of Palestinians are not Hamas," he adds. pic.twitter.com/b1rfl8gxfP

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) October 18, 2023

Fact is, you can't see most of what Biden is doing. The US and Israel are having intensive but private diplomatic conversations.

Maybe he's fucking up. But there's a lot of uncertainty in terms of what he's pressuring Israel to do. Saying you now view him as lower than a roach seems just like rage, not reason.

Regardless, my thoughts on this are that Israel has killed a lot of innocent civilians now and in the past. Cutting off the water was collective punishment. Just to pre-empt claims that I'm just an Israel partisan (search my posting history if you like).

But nonetheless, this hospital bombing does not seem to have been Israel. Maybe we'll find out more, maybe that's wrong, but I think it's pretty clear that statements from Hamas aren't trustworthy. The damage we're seeing today is not consistent with what they claimed last night. Maybe you think Israel is no more trustworthy, which is fair enough. But then maybe you should wait for independent confirmation and not trust either side in that case, instead of insisting that nonetheless it's Israel's fault.

[Ari]

This is exactly how UFO conspiracies happen. Arm chairs manipulators adding their 'just asking questions' guess over lights in the sky.

Jackson Hinkle seems to gone to bat for Hamas (not Palestine mind you, Hamas), has appeared on Tucker Carlson and was also banned by youtube for russian propaganda about the war in Ukraine.

Originally Posted by erimir

From what I've read, and what makes sense, a plausible explanation is that a Hamas rocket failed, landed in the parking lot, and due to the fuel, it caused a firebomb which caused some of the cars to ignite as well. Which would explain what was seen at night in combination with the hospital buildings appearing basically intact today. A missile warhead would have caused a larger crater.

This seems to be the most likely cause of all the orange flame which was likely fuel based. Some bombs can certainly produce big fireballs but most use high explosives that are either shaped and thus fire forward from the impact zone like a secondary fire shotgun, or are fused to explode before impact to maximize lateral damage. That crater is from a kinetic impact and bombs that need to hit the ground to explode are quite outdated.

[michio]

Regardless, I'm gonna have to say that your posts about this seem mostly like you have a pre-determined conclusion (Israel bombed the hospital) and are flailing about to explain why the evidence doesn't seem to support that. I came here expecting to see you backtracking.

I literally mentioned in an earlier post this whole thing has been embarrassing. I literally mentioned I'm having fun at this point because I have no idea what's gong on.

Do you want me to explicitly state, "I was wrong." Ok, I was wrong, new evidence came out and it's no longer clear. Satisfied?

Regardless, I'm gonna have to say that your posts about this seem mostly like you have a pre-determined conclusion

*shrug* You have a pre-determined conclusion it was Hamas.

From what I've read, and what makes sense, a plausible explanation is that a Hamas rocket failed, landed in the parking lot, and due to the fuel, it caused a firebomb which caused some of the cars to ignite as well. Which would explain what was seen at night in combination with the hospital buildings appearing basically intact today. A missile warhead would have caused a larger crater.

I literally mentioned this was probably a rocket failure/dud. Could have been Hamas, and I'm willing to go with that, but the video I linked to that you didn't watch contradicts that.

I also don't agree with your view that Biden has made no statements that are sympathetic to Palestinians.

You're right, he has made statements, but not condemning Israel specifically for their actions. Everyone is side-stepping that detail.

Saying you now view him as lower than a roach seems just like rage, not reason.

Yeah, it's not reason, but if you're not angry, you're not paying attention. Kinda cringe with the tone-policing when there's a genocide in progress.

it's pretty clear that statements from Hamas aren't trustworthy

I'm not listening to them, if you actually read my posts, which no one is doing, the main reason I believe it was Israel is:
- the video I linked above, which could be bullshit for one reason or another, I have no idea
- the doctors who I trust speaking at the hospital
- Israel themselves saying they were going to bomb the hospital and they already shelled the hospital 3 days prior

I'm not listening to Hamas statements, and I honestly don't even know where to view or read that.

You, as much as me, came here with a pre-determined conclusion and you're shadowboxing with a position I don't really have. I have no idea whose fault it is, and I stated as much.

You really annoyed me with that post honestly, I'm gonna check out of this. Ultimately this hospital bombing isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.

This is exactly how UFO conspiracies happen. Arm chairs manipulators adding their 'just asking questions' guess over lights in the sky.

Bad comparison. We're looking at what footage we have available, and I've stated I don't what that footage even is. We have no proof that light is a jet rushing away.

I could make the same comparison with people who were posting grainy, shitty videos that were from last year to defend Israel.

Jackson Hinkle seems to gone to bat for Hamas (not Palestine mind you, Hamas), has appeared on Tucker Carlson and was also banned by youtube for russian propaganda about the war in Ukraine.

I had no idea who that was until just now when I looked it up. So yeah, I'm even more suspect about the video now.