Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

[viscousmemories]

It's a little weird to me that the topic of Hamas vs Israel and Israel vs Palestinians hasn't had much traction here in the last week, because it has definitely dominated my consciousness.

The terrorist attack perpetrated by Hamas in Israel last Saturday was a horrific tragedy, and my heart goes out to the families and friends of those men, women, and children who were killed and/or kidnapped. I hope those who are still alive are allowed to return home and that those who were affected find peace.

My heart also goes out to the people of Gaza, who have suffered the past week of nearly constant shelling and the loss of hundreds, maybe thousands of lives there, including hundreds of children. I am also deeply concerned that Israel seems to be arming up to commit mass murder in Gaza, and that the western world (and in particular the United States) has vowed to "stand by Israel" as they use US-supplied weapons and finances to respond in any way they choose.

There are >2 million people in Gaza, half of whom are children. Their food, water, medicine, electricity, etc. have been blockaded by Israel for 17 yrs. Now, after a week of bombing, all their resources have been cut off by Israel and half of the population has been told that it has 24 hours to migrate to the lower half of the strip or Israel, who is apparently planning a massive ground invasion, can't guarantee their safety.

The idea being pushed by much of the mainstream media, that the only moral response is "I condemn Hamas and stand with Israel", is ludicrous bullshit. Hamas is a terrorist organization of approximately 30k fighters who just murdered about 1300 people in Israel, and Israel is an apartheid state who has kept the Palestinians under their foot for decades, has killed an equal number of civilians through a week long bombing campaign, and has now amassed 500k fighters and heavy arms on the border in preparation for a massive invasion that will likely lead to many more thousands of deaths.

For me the only moral response is to condemn terrorism and apartheid in the same breath, and the only possible solution is one that attempts to end both.

[Miss Shelby]

Never mind

[seebs]

A Lot of Things Are True

In which a Rabbi argues that there is a reasonable case to be made for "actually, EVERYONE is wrong to kill civilians".

[LarsMac]

The "I stand with Israel" line wears thin, these days here in the Christian Country of the American Plains.
Every pastor is dragging out shiny new rhetoric to convince people to "Support Israel" by donating money to the local churches' "I Stand With Israel" funds. God knows where all that money will actually end up. Probably in the pockets of shills like Franklin Graham.

I have no answers. All I can do is to try to avoid being part of the problem.

"Until there is Peace in Palestine, there will be no Peace on Earth." This statement was made by a Buddhist at a conference I attended back in the early '70s. It still holds true.

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

’The Onion’ Stands With Israel Because It Seems Like You Get In Less Trouble For That

Dying Gazans Criticized For Not Using Last Words To Condemn Hamas https://t.co/pshItr0uUS

— The Onion (@TheOnion) October 13, 2023

[specious_reasons]

The initial attack by Hamas is so obviously deplorable, my sympathies go out to the victims.

I also knew Israel was going to retaliate heavily and without discernment. Innocent residents of Gaza are being killed or injured as well now.

It's a mess, and I have largely kept quiet because it's complicated.

[Ari]

I basically have nothing to say, everything about the attack was designed to anger Israel and now they're angry. A lot of words will be spilled over the morality of an enraged Israel destroying Gaza, but it's not going to change what has or is going to happen, which is all bad all around.

[viscousmemories]

I've been enjoying the coverage by Matt Frei at Channel 4 in the UK. I've seen him interview leaders of Hamas, Israel, and the US and he doesn't seem afraid to ask hard questions and follow-up. I also watch Al Jazeera's coverage knowing full well that they are funded by Qatar (thanks for the heads-up, YouTube) and therefore biased, but not very many other outfits are covering the situation on the ground in Gaza as much as they are. BBC's coverage has been decent too. I haven't seen any US media coverage that has been equally enlightening.

For more of the Palestinian perspective I bought a book someone recommended called "Hundred Years War on Palestine", by Rashid Khalidi, and I'm looking forward to reading it. Unfortunately I can only manage one book at a time and I'm halfway through "Fire In The Lake", the gargantuan book about the sociopolitical history of Vietnam and the Vietnam War.

One of the things Matt Frei asked the Hamas leader was "what did you hope to gain from killing women and childen"? Of course the interviewee dodged the question, but I saw the same question in another context and the respondent (an academic, iirc) said something to the effect of "sometimes people act out of anger and desperation, there's not always a rational endgame". But the horrible truth is that the world has been talking about the Palestinian issue for the past week because of Hamas' attack on Israel. Every fifth video in my TikTok feed is an explainer about the situation. I've learned more about the history of the conflict this week than I ever knew, and I care more than I ever have. I don't expect anything good to come of my raised awareness, but I hope that with the world paying more attention than usual something might change for the better.

I remember the anti South African apartheid protests on the UM campus in Ann Arbor when I was a young man. I considered myself pretty liberal and my friends were definitely all firmly on the left politically, but I don't remember paying much attention to those protests. It just seemed like something a million miles away that I couldn't influence if I wanted to. I regret that I didn't at least do what I could to understand the situation and form a position on it that I could promote and defend. Maybe that's all I can do about anything, so I'm trying to do at least that.

[seebs]

There's definitely a layer of this that is reminiscent of the guy who assassinated former Japanese PM Abe, and then everyone looked at his reasons and said "okay assassination still uncool but he DOES have a point you know".

[fragment]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I remember the anti South African apartheid protests on the UM campus in Ann Arbor when I was a young man. I considered myself pretty liberal and my friends were definitely all firmly on the left politically, but I don't remember paying much attention to those protests. It just seemed like something a million miles away that I couldn't influence if I wanted to.

It was likely the mass movement influenced the House and Senate to over-ride Reagan's veto over sanctions, and in turn that kind of international pressure helped convince the white minority regime to negotiate with the ANC for democratic transition. The situation was messy and complicated and took too long to play out, and the relatively peaceful transition was never a guaranteed outcome, but it's good to remember that organised collective action by us common folks can do some work in the world, at least sometimes.

[michio]

Yesterday I accidentally watched a video of the aftermath of the IDF dropping a bomb on Palestinians moving through an evacuation route after Israel told them to do so. I try not to view graphic images and videos online anymore, it fucks me up harder as an adult.

I really need to stop following the news about this extermination.

[-FX-]

The images of dead children

Extremely disturbing

[LarsMac]

You have a choice, ya know. You can choose to look away when you've seen enough.

[specious_reasons]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I regret that I didn't at least do what I could to understand the situation and form a position on it that I could promote and defend. Maybe that's all I can do about anything, so I'm trying to do at least that.

Learn, better yourself, and hope you can influence others with the facts. It's a laudable choice.

I had some real hope in the 1990s, but almost all of that has faded over time, partly because violent right wing ideology is ascendant in a lot of places where we need to have a lot more tolerance.

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

For me the only moral response is to condemn terrorism and apartheid in the same breath, and the only possible solution is one that attempts to end both.

This is it.

The only positive I can see from the Hamas attack is that it may (but most likely won't) lead to more public discussion of opposing apartheid.

[ShottleBop]

From Beyt Tikkun and The Network of Spiritual Progressives:

We are outraged by, mourn deeply, and unequivocally condemn the horrific actions of Hamas. According to Israeli sources, more than 1,200 people were killed and 2,900 injured, most of whom were civilians, and over 100 individuals (including children, women, and the elderly) were taken as hostages into Gaza.

Tikkun magazine and Beyt Tikkun: A Synagogue without Walls partnered with others to write a joint statement that we hope can help us rise above divisiveness and division and call us to our highest selves.

What follows is our joint statement. We invite everyone who agrees with our statement to add your name. You can read the statement below and add your name by clicking here.

Solidarity with Israel/Palestine

This statement is written and signed by Palestinians, Jews, and others who are committed to holding complex truths and striving to overcome polarization. We feel the pain of our people, identify with their pain, and need to work together to uplift our shared humanity.

The unfolding horror in Israel and Gaza is an escalation of decades of state-sanctioned violence by Israel against Palestinians. We condemn the horrific actions of Hamas against Israeli civilians. We likewise condemn Israel’s unbridled bombing and cutting off access to all basic needs, including food, water, electricity, and medical care. Attacks on Palestinian and Israeli civilians are repugnant.

Israeli violence against Palestinians has been intentionally hidden, slow, and steady. Contrary to what the media is reporting, this attack was not unprovoked. The Israeli and American governments have worked together to suppress and deny the inhumane acts against Palestinians that have led to this moment. There are Palestinians and Jews who have been raising red flags and warning about this inevitable outcome for decades, only to be dismissed and ignored.

The world’s failure to challenge Israel’s ongoing occupation, apartheid, and unbridled violence by settlers and soldiers in the West Bank provides the context for what is happening now. The recent Israeli government’s escalation of violence, encroachment of Al Aqsa Mosque, and its 16-year siege of Gaza has led to the current explosion.

We repeat: the brutality of Hamas’ attack on Israeli civilians is unjustified.

As we watch the violent attacks and rallying of xenophobia on both sides, we are brokenhearted. Although it feels like a time to stand with “our people,” we know this is a time to come together. This is a time of great suffering for all; a time of painful emotions. It is only by recognizing our shared fears and our shared tears that we will find our way through this nightmare. It is a struggle we need to undertake jointly.

When we fall back into our separate and distinct identities we risk becoming part of the problem, not the solution. Both peoples suffer from ongoing trauma. We are all on high alert. The fear is palpable. And it is easy for us to objectify the 'other.'

We seek a third path that neither perpetuates a xenophobic response nor sustains an unjust status quo. This moment calls us to slow down, sit with the pain and complexity, and grapple with our discomfort. It is a moment for digging deep, seeing across differences, and remembering our deep yearning for peace and justice. It is only through compassion and empathy that we will find a different way.

We recognize and uplift the humanity of all peoples in Israel/Palestine.

We call for an immediate ceasefire from Hamas and Israel.

We demand that basic needs be provided to Gazans.

We demand that the United States provide only humanitarian support to Israel and Gaza.

We support the creation of a movement that recognizes and affirms the humanity, dignity, and desire of both peoples to live in peace through reconciliation and justice.

[michio]

The IDF just bombed a hospital and killed around 500 people.

I tried scrolling through some Gaza tags on Twitter before getting too outraged to confirm to some degree. There's some recordings of the bombing which looked huge and people can't even get too close to the rubble yet because there's a massive fire. I briefly looked at one video which showed a massive... I don't even know how to describe it, an open-air graveyard of torsos and limbs? It was fucked. So I think we can confirm this happened, and yeah it was probably 500+.

It's getting harder and harder for the IDF and the Western media apparatus to continue justifying and running cover for this massacre. Israel is overplaying their hand. In the initial couple days when everyone was still mad about the Hamas attack, it was easy to justify Israel's response, but now that everyone has calmed down, we're just seeing and hearing non-stop reports about a straight-up random extermination of civilians.

I did check some spaces that are pro-Israel, and I think the way the propaganda works is simply by sowing doubt to cause confusion. If you do this long enough, eventually the news cycle moves on and you forget about civilians bombed at a hospital. You also never establish a strong opinion or view about the situation.

So for example what I'm seeing about this attack:
"Hmm, could have been a Hamas rocket or bomb."
"We still don't know whose bomb it was."
"Man this war sucks, both sides say it was the other side, guess we'll never be able to confirm."
"We still don't know if the hospital was an operating base for Hamas, they're known to setup operations in schools and hospitals."
"This is what happens when terrorists try to make explosives from water pipes."
"IDF intelligence knew this was a Hamas operating base, Hamas then corralled Palestinians in this hospital so that when it was hit, civilians would die and it would make Israel look bad."

This sows enough doubt in the conversation that citizens outside of the region don't get agitated nor take direct action against their government who are supporting this. If you are already pro-Israel, your brain will easily latch onto any of these explanations. If an action by Israel is unjustifiable, then don't justify it, just sow doubt and confusion by offering explanations. You can also just lie. That still works in the information age, it's even easier to spread lies now honestly.

It's fascinating watching how manufacturing consent for genocide works in real-time. I didn't think it would be possible to be this blatant and get away with it in the information age, but here we are.

--- Edit

Just saw some propaganda from "Israel War Room" on twitter. They're claiming it was a failed launch from Hamas. Here, view the propaganda here: https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/st...42217870164373

Notice something wrong with this video: There's electricity all over the place in the propaganda video. We can literally watch a dozen other videos from civilians showing it's dark. In the propaganda video, there was no explosion. We have video of the real explosion, there was a huge fireball after impact.

Next, in the real video of the attack, there's that signature, "eeeeeEEEEE *boom*" sound. Watch it here: https://twitter.com/LMahmoudJ/status...41098691174428 That was a modern missile traveling at high-velocity from an organized and well-equipped military, that wasn't some Hamas terrorists shooting a pipe-bomb made out of water pipes attached to a shitty rocket. That wasn't a shitty RPG. Come the fuck on.

[ShottleBop]

CNN is reporting it as an Israeli airstrike: Gaza: Israeli airstrikes hit hospital and school in Gaza as blockade cripples healthcare system | CNN

[Ari]

The sad reality is that both sides really want to genocide each other, IDF adding the "Reminder" that 30-40% of Hamas rockets fall short is just classic propaganda.

If that second video is of the hospital explosion then either Hamas has some advanced rockets that impact like guided bombs which they accidentally shot at themselves, or an airplane dropped a guided munition onto a hospital.

I presume the plan is to level Gaza and justify it as they go.
...Reminder, 60-70% of Palestinian building construction uses Potassium Nitrate as insulation filler...

[michio]

deleted for failed sarcasm

[michio]

Originally Posted by ShottleBop

CNN is reporting it as an Israeli airstrike: Gaza: Israeli airstrikes hit hospital and school in Gaza as blockade cripples healthcare system | CNN

Check your link again, the IDF picked up the phone and told CNN to stop with the antisemitism.

"Israel accused of blasting hospital and school in Gaza as blockade cripples healthcare system"

I just watched the IDF spokesperson on CNN who blamed it on Hamas. Zero pushback from the 2 useless "journalists" on camera. Then they immediately went to reporting about the house speaker vote.

I know invoking 1984 is cringe, but holy shit... this is unreal.

[Miss Shelby]

Why did you change the title of this thread?

[seebs]

... how did it change? i thought this was the title it had originally.

[ShottleBop]

Originally Posted by michio

CNN is wrong, it was actually a failed Hamas rocket launch. Here's proof: https://twitter.com/Omarfsa2/status/1714349451651719581

Just before the explosion, Hamas announced it was going to send a volley into Israel, 2 minutes later, the explosion at the hospital happened.

So there you have it, Hamas strikes again. Let's stop with the anti-Israeli propaganda that people are so quick to eat up. I fear for our future due to people being unable to parse fact from fiction. The narratives surrounding this war against Hamas are terrifying. Hamas is able to launch attack after attack which is then blamed on Israel.

I recommend following twitter for real journalism. The mainstream media pushes these weird narratives that end up supporting and justifying terrorism against Israelis. You can get the real story from people on the ground.

hamas HaMas hAMAs hamas hamas hamas hamas

I heard if you say Hamas enough, a Hamas will appear under your bed tonight.

Is this the same michio that earlier posted, and has not edited:

The IDF just bombed a hospital and killed around 500 people.

I tried scrolling through some Gaza tags on Twitter before getting too outraged to confirm to some degree. There's some recordings of the bombing which looked huge and people can't even get too close to the rubble yet because there's a massive fire. I briefly looked at one video which showed a massive... I don't even know how to describe it, an open-air graveyard of torsos and limbs? It was fucked. So I think we can confirm this happened, and yeah it was probably 500+.

It's getting harder and harder for the IDF and the Western media apparatus to continue justifying and running cover for this massacre. Israel is overplaying their hand. In the initial couple days when everyone was still mad about the Hamas attack, it was easy to justify Israel's response, but now that everyone has calmed down, we're just seeing and hearing non-stop reports about a straight-up random extermination of civilians.

I did check some spaces that are pro-Israel, and I think the way the propaganda works is simply by sowing doubt to cause confusion. If you do this long enough, eventually the news cycle moves on and you forget about civilians bombed at a hospital. You also never establish a strong opinion or view about the situation.

So for example what I'm seeing about this attack:
"Hmm, could have been a Hamas rocket or bomb."
"We still don't know whose bomb it was."
"Man this war sucks, both sides say it was the other side, guess we'll never be able to confirm."
"We still don't know if the hospital was an operating base for Hamas, they're known to setup operations in schools and hospitals."
"This is what happens when terrorists try to make explosives from water pipes."
"IDF intelligence knew this was a Hamas operating base, Hamas then corralled Palestinians in this hospital so that when it was hit, civilians would die and it would make Israel look bad."

This sows enough doubt in the conversation that citizens outside of the region don't get agitated nor take direct action against their government who are supporting this. If you are already pro-Israel, your brain will easily latch onto any of these explanations. If an action by Israel is unjustifiable, then don't justify it, just sow doubt and confusion by offering explanations. You can also just lie. That still works in the information age, it's even easier to spread lies now honestly.

It's fascinating watching how manufacturing consent for genocide works in real-time. I didn't think it would be possible to be this blatant and get away with it in the information age, but here we are.

--- Edit

Just saw some propaganda from "Israel War Room" on twitter. They're claiming it was a failed launch from Hamas. Here, view the propaganda here: https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/st...42217870164373

Notice something wrong with this video: There's electricity all over the place in the propaganda video. We can literally watch a dozen other videos from civilians showing it's dark. In the propaganda video, there was no explosion. We have video of the real explosion, there was a huge fireball after impact.

Next, in the real video of the attack, there's that signature, "eeeeeEEEEE *boom*" sound. Watch it here: https://twitter.com/LMahmoudJ/status...41098691174428 That was a modern missile traveling at high-velocity from an organized and well-equipped military, that wasn't some Hamas terrorists shooting a pipe-bomb made out of water pipes attached to a shitty rocket. That wasn't a shitty RPG. Come the fuck on.

[michio]

@ShottleBop

My bad, I was being sarcastic and mocking people saying this attack was Hamas. A lot gets lost in translation over the internet.

I'm really frustrated that we're witnessing a genocide and the entire West is backing up Israel. This is surreal.

They're saying it was from "an Islamic jihad" group now, I think. Maybe tomorrow it will be ISIS. Who knows. We're just making it up as we go. They've changed the story like 4 times at this point, and they succeeded in getting people to debate and yell at each other, this causes confusion and the general public can't get a handle on what's going on.