Return to Gender 101

LadyShea · 05-24-2011, 10:03 PM

Parents keep child's gender secret - Parentcentral.ca

I'm kinda vacillating between "WTF Ur Stoopid" and "Why didn't I think of that because it's a brilliant way to say fuck you to gender stereotyping"

lisarea · 05-24-2011, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Parents keep child's gender secret - Parentcentral.ca

I'm kinda vacillating between "WTF Ur Stoopid" and "Why didn't I think of that because it's a brilliant way to say fuck you to gender stereotyping"

I saw that the other day, in a few different places, and the consistently vitriolic and completely uninformed reactions just cemented my opinion. Anything that makes so many stupid people mad is probably a worthwhile endeavor.

Ensign Steve · 05-24-2011, 10:13 PM

When I was a pre-teen and my mom was in night school, she'd sometimes take me with her and let me audit a session of one of her classes, especially this one women's studies class she took me to because of feminism.

So we watched this film someone made that was a social experiment where they had a man holding a toddler in the park, and the story was he was babysitting, he pretended he didn't know the gender. Moms and other people would come by and be like, "oh cute! how old?" etc like people do, but when they would ask "boy or girl" he would be like, "I don't know" and their minds were blown.

That was forever ago and I still remember how unnerved I was by people's reactions. Like people would want to check and they would start getting physical with the guy and the baby and he had to be like "wow, hey, back off!" and stuff. And they would rage out like "how can you not know?! I must know!"

Sock Puppet · 05-24-2011, 10:19 PM

Wow, I think the sense of entitlement to know somebody else's business creeps me out even more than the gender issue.

LadyShea · 05-24-2011, 10:24 PM

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Like people would want to check and they would start getting physical with the guy and the baby and he had to be like "wow, hey, back off!" and stuff. And they would rage out like "how can you not know?! I must know!"

Probably why SNL's Pat was so funny, because people are like that

Ymir's blood · 05-24-2011, 10:30 PM

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Friends said they were imposing their political and ideological values on a newborn.

This is true. It is also true that the 'friends' wish to do so as well, only with a different set of values. It's kind of like how judges are only 'activist' when they are doing something ideologically opposed to the speaker.

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Most of all, people said they were setting their kids up for a life of bullying in a world that can be cruel to outsiders.

Acknowledge the status quo as being wrong, but support it anyway! Great fun!

lisarea · 05-24-2011, 10:40 PM

Gender is such a deeply fundamental construct, people honestly don't even know how to relate to someone without gender identity. Even beyond the obvious pronoun issue.

The most lulzy and hilarious aspect to the hostile responses to me is the gender essentialists who say that gender is so hardwired that ignoring it is ignoring some very fundamental aspect of that babby's humanity.

Because if it's such a fundamental and hardwired thing, you'd think they'd be able to tell without asking and policing about it all the time.

When TLM was a babby, people thought he was a girl all the time, and I guess a couple of times I was a little slow to correct them (like, "What's her name?" "The Little Muffin," "But that's a BOY'S NAME!" "Oh, she is a boy"). They'd get all agitated, like they'd made some horrible mistake to call a boy 'she' or something. I'd always sorta wonder why they were so flabbergasted over it. I mean, it's not like they were going to have sex with that lady baby and only narrowly escaped an awkward situation. He didn't care. I didn't care. Why did they?

LadyShea · 05-24-2011, 11:09 PM

Nobody ever mistakes Kiddo for a girl. Also, his natural temperament is very boy, though not exclusively...like he favors guns and swords but also likes his lovies and dolls and playing dress up (though his favored costumes are all warrior type things). He likes the color pink.

However, some people say stuff to him, though rarely in my presence, because at the store he might say "that's a girls toy"

Naru · 05-25-2011, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisarea

They'd get all agitated, like they'd made some horrible mistake to call a boy 'she' or something. I'd always sorta wonder why they were so flabbergasted over it. I mean, it's not like they were going to have sex with that lady baby and only narrowly escaped an awkward situation. He didn't care. I didn't care. Why did they?

I actually kind of understand the reaction, because they're expecting you to be really touchy. You should see how people react when I'm working and call their male dog "she" :dawkins:

Qingdai · 05-25-2011, 12:22 AM

I was going to say, I once said a boy had "pretty hair." I got an extreme dressing down from the mom how he was a boy.
I also was bad and said, "that's nice, he still has pretty hair."

Deadlokd · 05-25-2011, 12:29 AM

I think that when people are subconsciously working out how to interact with someone they run through a mental checklist and the first point is gender. If they can't establish that then they have no baseline with which to interact with that person. Then they schiz out.

Count has been telling me that sex and gender are different and that gender is a social construct. I'll take her word for it. She knows stuff. I know that the brains of human males and females develop differently but I don't know how that translates to gender.

Could someone start a thread and give me the starter course in Gender 101?

lisarea · 05-25-2011, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Nobody ever mistakes Kiddo for a girl. Also, his natural temperament is very boy, though not exclusively...like he favors guns and swords but also likes his lovies and dolls and playing dress up (though his favored costumes are all warrior type things). He likes the color pink.

However, some people say stuff to him, though rarely in my presence, because at the store he might say "that's a girls toy"

I kind of like to be an asshole when people say things about boys' and girls' products, and tell them that it is wrong to try to sell [toys|clothes|whatever] that already belong to someone else.

lisarea · 05-25-2011, 03:36 AM

Here is a followup article about all the angry goobers.

Star readers rage about couple raising ‘genderless' infant - Parentcentral.ca

The parents have said they don't want to give any more interviews, but they're being very generous and patient about some people who've said some really hostile shit about them.

But also, yes, I agree with Mrs. Deadlokd that some user with thread starting privileges should start a Sex and Gender thread.

irukandji · 05-25-2011, 03:52 AM

tina fey recently remarked, on the ellen show,
when asked the gender of her unborn child, that
she would know when she saw what it chose to
wear to prom.....

once you declare a gender on a birth certificate
in some states, it is irrevocable, which sucks in the
major leagues for transgender and transexual people

gender fluidity isnt novel, just unappreciated

btw, preferred gender pronouns (PGPs)
sometimes used by gender non-conformists
are zie, hir, hirs.... and yeah, it takes
a few tries to get it right, but it isnt
actually all that difficult...

ps

gender 101

sex is between the legs
gender is between the ears
and love is between the lungs

sorta

California Tanker · 05-25-2011, 05:23 AM

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but also likes his lovies

Wait. What's girlie about that?! I've a whole menagerie of cuddlies I sleep with. Two come into combat with me. (Nessie and MiniHedgie)

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He likes the color pink

Can't recall if it was this board, or another forum, but it was pointed out that pink is historically a guy's colour. The branch colour of German Panzertruppen (Tankers) is pink.

However, yes, I think the Canadians in question are a little strange. That said, I received many expressions of surprise when I said that I wanted to have no advance warning of my offspring's gender. Wasn't as if I could do much about it anyway, so what's the hurry?

NTM

LadyShea · 05-25-2011, 05:33 AM

From the follow up article

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“I would encourage people to stretch their imaginations and try to see the creativity and exploration in Storm’s parents’ efforts to create gender freedom for their child, rather than jumping to condemnation or criticism,” she said, adding people should take a moment to ask themselves, “Why does this get me so riled up?”

Dr. Ken Zucker, a psychologist and head of the gender identity service for children at Toronto’s Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, thinks the story has struck a nerve because it made people think about issues, such as sex and gender, that are normally taken for granted.

That's really it I think. People just sort of assume that boys are like boys and girls are like girls and there is boy things and girl things and why would anybody even question such things?

lisarea · 05-25-2011, 06:47 AM

There are a lot of people who are very invested for some reason in gender essentialism, or the idea that there are fundamentally male and female qualities that go beyond reproductive biology. And there are some differences, but they're not nearly as expressed or as consistent as the essentialists claim.

But ultimately, the most compelling argument against gender essentialism is the essentialists themselves. If there were innate gender differences the way they claim, that'd be that. They wouldn't need to be told a child's sex to know its gender, and they wouldn't need to police it constantly the way they do.

livius drusus · 05-25-2011, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadlokd

Could someone start a thread and give me the starter course in Gender 101?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisarea

But also, yes, I agree with Mrs. Deadlokd that some user with thread starting privileges should start a Sex and Gender thread.

I could just split this discussion into a new thread. Shea, your post would be the OP. Are you up for that?

Deadlokd · 05-25-2011, 07:57 AM

Ah, the Adminz come through. Phew.

Ymir's blood · 05-25-2011, 11:24 AM

New thread title: Return to Gender?

LadyShea · 05-25-2011, 03:44 PM

Sure why not. I have no phobia about thread starting

livius drusus · 05-25-2011, 05:06 PM

livius drusus · 05-25-2011, 05:52 PM

This was split from Miscellany due to popular demand.

livius drusus · 05-25-2011, 05:59 PM

I saw an HBO documentary years ago about biological, psychological and sociological gender fluidity that was quite illuminating on the subject. Deadlokd, you might find it a handy intro. Spoilering to save screen real estate. It's not NSFW that I recall, but it has been a while.

Ari · 05-25-2011, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naru

I actually kind of understand the reaction, because they're expecting you to be really touchy. You should see how people react when I'm working and call their male dog "she" :dawkins:

This is one reason I wanted the Gender option on FF. I occasionally forget genders online and people often get pissed off if you call them by the wrong gender.

As a guy with long hair, I barely notice when people get confused and generally answer to both genders. It's interesting how hair length and gender seems to be connected, even with a decent amount of stubble long hair means female.