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06-02-2011, 09:10 PM
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Jin, Gi, Rei, Ko, Chi, Shin, Tei
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Kael, this scenario that bugs me might apply to you especially as a teacher...please, when talking to both parents about their kid, address questions and comments to the dad either equally, or at least ask the question then make eye contact with both so they know you assume either one capable of answering. If faced with a dad only, do not assume he doesn't know anything or needs to ask the kid's mom.
I can't tell you how many times people have addressed all questions and comments re: Kiddo to me as if my husband wasn't even standing right there holding the baby, or he had not answered the previous three questions that had been directed at me.
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Sometimes, you don't even notice this sort of thing is going on; other times, you can't not notice.
Situation One: A few years ago, I was co-teaching a lab with a fellow graduate student. We'll call him "John." One lab session, I was on one side of the lab helping some students, and John was on the other side. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw a girl just a few feet away from John raise her hand and wave, apparently trying to get my attention. John had his back to her and didn't see, but he was literally within arm's reach, so she could easily have gotten his attention.
So since she clearly wanted my attention, I went over and helped. After class, I asked why she hadn't simply gotten John to help her. Her reply: "Because, when I ask you a question, you talk to me; when I ask him a question he stares at my boobs."
I discreetly spoke to a few other people in the class, and they were quite adamant that John was very blatant about that sort of thing, and that he could be very condescending toward female students. As it turned out, more than one student wound up filing a formal complaint against him. But I hadn't noticed any discrimination in how he treated male vs. female students on my own, and it would never have occurred to me that such a thing might be going on had it not been brought to my attention.
Situation Two: Back when I was in college, I was visiting a female friend and her family. She and I and her parents were all on very good terms, but Melissa and I weren't dating or anything. Well, their bird feeders were getting kind of low, so Melissa's dad asked if we'd run down to a nearby feed store to pick up some birdseed.
Melissa and I went into the store, and Melissa walked up to the counter to tell the guy she wanted to buy some birdseed. The guy at the counter turned to me and asked, "What blend?" "I don't know," I replied, "you should ask her." He didn't. Instead, he proceeded to tell me about the different blends they had, and which one(s) might be most appropriate -- even after I twice told him that Melissa was the person he should be talking to, not me.
It was a nearly surreal experience.
One thing that I'm occasionally forced to realize is that there's an awful lot of casual sexism going on around us that I almost-never notice unless it's either very blatant or it's specifically pointed out to me. I guess that it's not on my radar.
In the field of animal behavior, we often describe what are called "search images." When a hungry animal is looking for a specific type of food, for instance, it will often ignore perfectly edible food items because it's searching for one particular type of food and so doesn't notice all the other edible stuff that's easily available.
This often happens when you train an animal to expect to find a certain type of food in a certain type of environment, for example. If you train an animal to expect to find "Food Type A" in "Environment A" and "Food Type B" in "Environment B" and so forth, and if you then set the hungry animal loose in "Environment A," it will diligently search for "Food Type A," walking right past open bowls full of "Food Type B" that are in plain sight. Apparently, because the the animal doesn't expect to find "Food Type B" in this environment, it simply doesn't notice it.
I suspect that this sort of behavior -- failing to notice the obvious, because we aren't looking for it -- is a lot more common in us humans than most of us would like to think.
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06-02-2011, 09:46 PM
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A Very Gentle Bort
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Re: Return to Gender 101
I keep hoping we're making progress on this whole inequality business. But then...
&feature=player_embedded
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06-02-2011, 09:53 PM
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you're next
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Re: Return to Gender 101
is it just me or do female drummers look awkward most of the time?
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06-02-2011, 09:56 PM
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherMan
I keep hoping we're making progress on this whole inequality business. But then...
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explain the inequality.
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paranoid fringe dweller
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06-02-2011, 10:05 PM
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Tellifying
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Hey, has anyone noticed anything odd about how female drummers look?
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06-02-2011, 10:07 PM
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you're next
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by wei yau
Hey, has anyone noticed anything odd about how female drummers look?
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well they usually have bigger boobs than their male counterparts.
nothing against their skills. it's a style thing. men seem more theatrical behind a drum kit.
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06-02-2011, 10:47 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
"Because, when I ask you a question, you talk to me; when I ask him a question he stares at my boobs."
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With some guys, it's like boobs send out tractor beams to their eyeballs and they can't even help it.
"They don't talk" is the best line I have heard to counter this.
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06-02-2011, 10:48 PM
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ne plus ultraviolet
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portland Oregon USA
Gender: Male
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Hay, have you all noticed how awkward male posters are when they say really inane stupid shit? I think* it is because of their penis.
*If saying the first dumb thing that comes to mind is thinking, and thinking is a process that involves virtually no time or effort.
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06-02-2011, 10:48 PM
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an angry unicorn or a non-murdering leprechaun
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edge of Society
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Re: Return to Gender 101
My response is always, "Yes, there are two of them."
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06-02-2011, 11:05 PM
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you're next
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites
Hay, have you all noticed how awkward male posters are when they say really inane stupid shit? I think* it is because of their penis.
*If saying the first dumb thing that comes to mind is thinking, and thinking is a process that involves virtually no time or effort.
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fucking men.
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06-02-2011, 11:10 PM
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you're next
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Re: Return to Gender 101
another awkward thing is men playing field hockey. again- not knocking the skills. it just doesn't...jibe.
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paranoid fringe dweller
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06-02-2011, 11:47 PM
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ne plus ultraviolet
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSOZAZ
another awkward thing is men playing field hockey. again- not knocking the skills. it just doesn't...jibe.
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I hear ya- I feel the same way about all these things:
transexuals flying remote-control aircraft
bisexuals playing harpsichord
old people building bridges
young people using an abacus
Indonesians eating maple bars
Aleuts eating pizza
tall women spray-painting graffiti
medium-sized moose eating the heads off of tulips
fat people not smiling
skinny people preparing rotisserie chickens
tattooed people watching golf on television
Native Americans wearing lederhosen
homo sapiens drinking Jägermeister
Ladies in "Girls Gone Wild" videos brushing their teeth
homosexuals installing solar panels
Hey- not knocking their skills and abilities. I'm just saying they are not equal to the skills of others. I'm just saying there is something wrong with them. I mean not completely wrong- I'm totally willing to give them credit for attempting something that is clearly beyond their ability to do with a degree of comfort which would bolster my own comfort and dispel the vast collection of snap judgments I have on roles and who can do what with the modicum of grace that actually has nothing to do with gender or race or any other thing except for the collection of brain cells and their organization in my own head.
You totes get me, right ITSOZAZ?
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06-02-2011, 11:51 PM
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Admin of THIEVES and SLUGABEDS
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Re: Return to Gender 101
I linked to this article in the Berlusconi thread because it's about his trial, but it is also relevant itt because it deals with Italian sexism in general. Here's just a small example of the prevalent attitude towards women's issues. It's a quote from Fedele Confalonieri (one of Berlusconi's closest friends and associates who runs Mediaset, the largest commercial broadcaster in the country founded by Berlusconi in the 70s) in response to a question about Varonica Lario, Berlusconi's ex-wife who excoriated him in the press for being a pig.
Quote:
Confalonieri said, "In this case, you have to differentiate the reaction of a pissed-off wife—and she has reason to be pissed off!—but what she says is not true, if you look at the Berlusconian period concerning women." He continued, "They— [major newspaper] La Repubblica and so on—pretend that Berlusconi's television is against women. Television is not against women! Look at Canale 5," one of the networks controlled by Mediaset. "You start in the morning, the first program has an anchorwoman," Confalonieri said. " 'Striscia la Notizia,' there is a woman." In fact, there are usually two women on "Striscia la Notizia," a popular program whose name translates as "The News Slithers." The women—called veline, which means "slips of paper"—spend the program posed on top of a counter, while male anchors sit behind it discussing current events. Sometimes the veline crawl around on the floor wearing G-strings.
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And that's the news program. The game shows and talk shows are even worse.
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06-03-2011, 12:04 AM
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Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Re: Return to Gender 101
srsly?
They have writhing ladies on the news desk during the news show?
And the guy who runs that thinks that this is evidence that his network is not sexist?
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06-03-2011, 12:07 AM
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the internet says I'm right
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Western U.S.
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Quote:
"Because, when I ask you a question, you talk to me; when I ask him a question he stares at my boobs."
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With some guys, it's like boobs send out tractor beams to their eyeballs and they can't even help it.
"They don't talk" is the best line I have heard to counter this.
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Total side note, but I was once accused of this when that line of reasoning hadn't even occurred to me until after she said something. One of the martial arts I dabbled in during the heady days of my youth was a particular kind of broadsword fighting. During an exercise I paired off with a woman in the group. Normally in the basic stance I keep my sword pointed roughly at the middle of my opponent's sternum, but when I took my stance she said, "no, point at my chest." I was confused and reset, and she said it again. I took my stance a third time and she got exasperated, moving my practice sword closer to her collar bone and saying "No, not breasts, chest.
I didn't feel like arguing the point with her, and despite my resentment for what I felt was a false accusation, even then I had an inkling of understanding as to the kind of shit that many women have to deal with along those lines.
That group fell apart when the founder and principle teacher decided to engage in extramarital shenanigans with some of the female group members, a few of whom were underage at the time. True story.
__________________
For Science!Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
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06-03-2011, 12:19 AM
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Admin of THIEVES and SLUGABEDS
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir
srsly?
They have writhing ladies on the news desk during the news show?
And the guy who runs that thinks that this is evidence that his network is not sexist?
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Yes, yes and yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the New Yorker article
According to the World Economic Forum's 2010 Global Gender Gap Report, Italy ranks seventy-fourth in women’s rights, between the Dominican Republic and Gambia. Women constitute a smaller percentage of the workforce in Italy than in any other country in the European Union, apart from Malta, and those who work make barely half as much as their male counterparts. Emma Bonino, a Radical Party leader, told me, "When I was Minister of European Affairs, in 2007, I had to prepare a report on the status of women in Italy. The data came in, and I remember that I rejected it twice, saying to my staff, 'That's impossible: it cannot be so bad.'"
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It is, and Berlusconi's media empire and political approach play a not-inconsequential role in that.
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06-03-2011, 03:10 AM
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Re: Return to Gender 101
men also make better carnies. there's something not right about female carnies.
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06-03-2011, 03:19 AM
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites
Hey- not knocking their skills and abilities. I'm just saying they are not equal to the skills of others. I'm just saying there is something wrong with them. I mean not completely wrong- I'm totally willing to give them credit for attempting something that is clearly beyond their ability to do with a degree of comfort which would bolster my own comfort and dispel the vast collection of snap judgments I have on roles and who can do what with the modicum of grace that actually has nothing to do with gender or race or any other thing except for the collection of brain cells and their organization in my own head.
You totes get me, right ITSOZAZ?
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actually, chunks and thankers, you cut to the crux and it's the fact that this is actually what you believe. i said nothing of the sort. i'm sure a woman can drum as good as a man. if men were playing women in field hockey, i'd wager money on the dudes. lol. i'm just saying some things look better when some people do it, even when they do it the same. maybe society taught me to be like that, but in regard to men's field hockey and chick drummers...i think it's right.
lol...this thread is fun and ridiculous in lots of spots.
and BrotherMan...where was the inequality?
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06-03-2011, 04:26 AM
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Re: Return to Gender 101
see...i want an answer to my question because the fact is there is no inequality. that women is engaging in politics like the dudes. baby's come a long way. so the guy meowed at her? if she really wanted to level the playing field she should have "oinked" back at him. not nice behaviour to emulate, but it would have made things equal. instead, the lady makes it about gender beyond it being simply an attack. men will attack anything they perceive as weak, and women are raised to believe they are weak...so he went for it. she should have fought back like a man and i bet she would have startled him into silence. she'd have been the winner in a fair fight.
and you don't need to preach to me about the man being sexist. i understand your point of view. i'm simply trying to point out how it's wrong.
lol.
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06-03-2011, 04:36 AM
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A Very Gentle Bort
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Re: Return to Gender 101
You're incorrect. About the most equivalent thing to meowing at a woman is calling a man a pussy - omg, equating him to a girl's no-no place! Calling a man a pig, or oinking at him, has very little demeaning effect on him. There is significantly less societal shame names for men than women. Haven't you been reading the thread?
Oh, hey, an even better idea! How about teaching our idiot men not to be assholes to everyone! Stooping to that level of name calling, cat-calling, or whatever the fuck that was is not the answer. Calling men - anyone, in fact, on that bullshit is the best way to stop that behavior. So fuck you very much for me not taking your serious question at all serious.
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06-03-2011, 04:42 AM
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Member
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demimonde
My response is always, "Yes, there are two of them."
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And they're the only two that are unafraid.
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06-03-2011, 04:51 AM
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you're next
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherMan
You're incorrect. About the most equivalent thing to meowing at a woman is calling a man a pussy - omg, equating him to a girl's no-no place! Calling a man a pig, or oinking at him, has very little demeaning effect on him. There is significantly less societal shame names for men than women. Haven't you been reading the thread?
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there's a reason oinking at him would have very little effect, though it would be equal in action. and you are supporting the concept of women as inferior, in case you were unaware. you are simply making my point for me in the above (and it's not that women are inferior). thanks for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherMan
Oh, hey, an even better idea! How about teaching our idiot men not to be assholes to everyone! .
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yes! even better...teach everybody that equally!!
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06-03-2011, 05:25 AM
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Admin of THIEVES and SLUGABEDS
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ymir's blood
What Makes a Body Obscene? » Sociological Images
Quote:
Both Barnes & Noble and Borders “bagged” the magazine, like they do pornographic ones, such that one can see the title of the magazine but the rest of the cover is hidden. Barnes and Noble said that the magazine came that way, representatives for Dossier say that the bookstore “chains” required them to do it
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Then there's all those manly men over at FHM magazine who are for some reason compelled to prove said manliness with forceful heterosexuality and for some reason, totally unrelated I'm sure, find Andrej Pejic's androgeny threatening.
GET IT?! THEY ARE NOT SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO MEN EVEN WHEN THEY LOOK JUST LIKE HOT WOMEN THAT THEY WOULD BE ATTRACTED TO IF THEY DIDN'T KNOW THEY WERE MEN OH MY GOD PASS THE SICK BUCKET PENIS PENIS PENIS PENI
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06-03-2011, 06:50 AM
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Re: Return to Gender 101
ITZOZAZ, you are boring.
Beyond that, no - a woman rationally discussing this issue is not at all comparable to her being inferior. Oinking in return would do nothing. Speaking rationally is far better.
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06-03-2011, 06:53 AM
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an angry unicorn or a non-murdering leprechaun
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Oh, and by the way the reason it would have little effect is not that men are tougher (lol aka superior, ever witness childbirth?)
It is because men are conditioned that such behavior is admirable, and one admonishment is nothing.
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