__________________ The content of the preceeding post has been true. And by true, I mean false. It's all lies. But they're entertaining lies. And in the end, isn't that the real truth? The answer, is no.
Ok, caught an interview of Jesse Jackson by Keith Olbermann on MSNBC where he said that this was a stepping stone to get the n-word, and language degrading women ("the first step to domestic violence" as Jackson called it) out of music and comedy.
So, I stand corrected on Jesse Jackson's motives here, and I'm pleased to have heard what he said about the issue.
__________________ Of Courtesy, it is much less than Courage of Heart or Holiness. Yet in my walks it seems to me that the Grace of God is in Courtesy.
Then there is the issue of calling a specific group of women a pejorative term. The Sociology department at Brown University are a bunch of homophobic redneck inbred under-educated crackers certainly has a different sting than, sociologists are overwhelmingly crackers.
I think that Qingdai has touched on an important aspect of this controversy, one that seems to have been largely ignored in the public debate. I find Imus' language more offensive than the language used by rap artists because of the context. Particularly because of the nature of the target of the comment. Ordinarily, offensive and insulting song lyrics, comedy routines, etc. have a somewhat generalized target. Imus' observation was about a very specific group of individuals. He could have simply said that the Rutgers team was the most butt ugly collection of women he had ever seen, and I would have found it equally insensitive and offensive. No racial issues involved at all. Does the fact that he used racially loaded terms make it worse? Certainly it makes it more inflammatory, but I am not sure that it makes it any more hurtful to the individuals being targeted. What bothers me is that his words were hurtful and those who were most likely to be hurt by them had done absolutely nothing to invite his ridicule.
Personally, I think MSNBC is right to have cancelled his program. Not because of this particular incident, but because it is a crap program. I say that on the basis of an admittedly limited sampling. I have never been able to watch more than a very few minutes of his show before terminal boredom set in. Always there has been something more interesting to watch, paint drying for example.
__________________ Old Pain In The Ass says: I am on a mission from God to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable; to bring faith to the doubtful and doubt to the faithful.
I have never been able to watch more than a very few minutes of his show before terminal boredom set in. Always there has been something more interesting to watch, paint drying for example.
I prefer "Washington Journal" on C-SPAN. I loooooove to listen to all of the crackpots call in and complain about everything. It's one thing to read what wingnuts post on the internet, but when you get to hear 'em actually say it...well, that's entertainment, folks.
__________________ The content of the preceeding post has been true. And by true, I mean false. It's all lies. But they're entertaining lies. And in the end, isn't that the real truth? The answer, is no.
You might think that being called a Papist is no big deal, but for me, it truly is. [...] It's why when I see a Catholic proudly call themselves a Papist, I ask them to reconsider.
I can see that. Especially considering that the word has a specific meaning beyond just meaning "Catholic". It's like saying you worship the Pope rather than Jesus. "Faggot" and "nigger" don't have such a semantic link, tho.
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Or do you think that only homosexuals and blacks have a leg to stand on when people talk about discrimination? If so, pull your head up out of the sand.
Mmmmm... nope. I don't think that anti-Catholic bigotry is in any way as large of a problem, however.
For the record, I've heard people make comments around here in NC such as that Catholics aren't really Christian because they're polytheists for having saints yada yada. And it annoyed me. Also annoying is when "Christian" and "Catholic" are listed as seperate options on polls. But I haven't heard it from as many people nor heard of anything actually happening to Catholics except, I would assume, those people not being their friends.
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Originally Posted by TomJoe
Someone calls their homosexual friends fags all the time. Then, someone they are familiar but not friendly with (who hears them use the word), calls them a fag (in a similar tone, though they may not be homosexual*). They get offended. I call bullshit on that. If you get offended by someone else using the word, don't use it yourself.
Same thing is true of other words used between friends and family. You can't walk up to someone and call them an asshole either, but you can call a friend an asshole without it being offensive (and likewise, if you intone it properly, it will be offensive).
It's a little different, but I don't see why it's somehow hypocritical when we accept the same thing about other coarse language.
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*Other than telling people outright they're gay, how are you to tell that they're not gay? For all one knows, they are, they just haven't informed you of such. That's another problem with the "us versus them" attitudes prevalent in these scenarios.
A number of ways. It's all about context.
First of all, are we in a gay location, such as a gay neighborhood or gay bar or other establishment? Are we at a gay event, such as a parade, or activist meeting, or what have you? Are we in a group of other people that we know are gay? Is this a mostly gay party? How are they dressed? How do they speak? Are they clearly "with" someone of the same sex (an obvious consideration)?
If it's not obvious from someone's behavior and fashion, if I meet someone in a random place I'll assume they're straight. But there are plenty of contexts where I will assume that people are probably gay. People don't just say the "gay community" for no reason, we do often socialize in majority gay groups.
I work in a factory, where colorful language (no pun intended) is ever-present. There is a 30-40% minority population, and this week, I have heard 'nappy headed ho' being used more times that I can count.
It doesn't bother me that it's black men and women who are using this term, directed at each other. They've taken it and made a joke of it.
Don Imus? I never saw/listened to his show before, so his firing doesn't affect me at all. Maybe he'll disappear into the obscurity of sattelite radio, like Stern.
I guess I shouldn't have been so flippant about Gov. Corzine's car accident, it sounds like the dude just about frickin' died. The broken leg was only a small part of it.
I guess I shouldn't have been so flippant about Gov. Corzine's car accident, it sounds like the dude just about frickin' died. The broken leg was only a small part of it.
It appears that his SUV caused the chain reaction which resulted in his injuries.
Plus it had it's emergency lights flashing. I thought those were only to be used in emergencies. I don't think getting to the mansion to mediate between Rutgers and Imus can be classified as an "emergency".
__________________ Of Courtesy, it is much less than Courage of Heart or Holiness. Yet in my walks it seems to me that the Grace of God is in Courtesy.
I found this topic, then I read it, and found it interesting enough to post in it. This thread is more than 6119 days old.
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He didn't say anything that isn't -- at this moment -- being repeatedly endorsed by a majority of black male rappers, some of whom have become millionaires by spewing lyrics that demean women.
Their sexually explicit, hip-hop music videos -- really little more than soft porn -- celebrate the denigration of black women as just another fashion statement.
- S. Renee Mitchell October 13, 2007
While that is old news, like the thread, it was the mindreading and gaslighting part that I found interesting enough to respond ot.
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Originally Posted by lisarea
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Originally Posted by TomJoe
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Originally Posted by Clutch Munny
It sounds like the view that someone's intentions might be relevant to how we understand their utterances.
Do you have some sort of super power that allows you to know the hearts of men? It sure would come in handy, to figure out someone's intentions.
Nobody knows. That's why we have to use social cues like context.
The context of one gay man saying "Hey, faggot" to another gay man is different from the context of a putative heterosexual man yelling it out of the window of a car.
AND the social context is not exclusively inclusive of the group, either. There are misogynistic women, homophobic gay people, and people who are bigoted against their own race; and if they use the same slurs in an offensive context, it's offensive because the intent is implicit. And the converse applies as well. In certain contexts, those terms are inoffensive even when they're used by people who are not members of that group, because that intent is implicit.
There is not a clear, bright line drawn between insiders and outsiders. It's all about the context and the intent. Yes, in some situations, your intent is more likely to be misinterpreted, even if you don't mean it that way. But more often when these things come up, it's not a misunderstanding at all. Why, for example, would an old white man see fit to comment on something so unremarkable and irrelevant as the hair texture of a basketball team? What is the context?
Further fragmenting the issue is the fact that none of these groups is a single-minded entity. The people who coopt the terms to describe themselves and their circles are not representative of the entire group. A lot of black people don't like the n-word, don't use it themselves, and don't want anyone to refer to them as such. Same thing for gay people, women, and any other group. There's no consensus.
Of course it would be ideal if these bigotries and the words they spawn didn't exist, but they do. The coopting thing is just how some people have chosen to respond.
"It's all about the context and the intent."
What if the intent is to make money? To profit off of words that can be offensive?
Or to get attention? Fame? Infamy? What's the context and intent of using "nappy-headed ho" in a rap song? A video?
It seems so quaint and tame, "nappy-headed ho". 17 years ago that caused minor outrage. Today, "wet ass pussy" can be blasted in your face and nobody gives a fuck.
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Nobody knows. That's why we have to use social cues like context.
I would hope the person saying something knows.
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The context of one gay man saying "Hey, faggot" to another gay man is different from the context of a putative heterosexual man yelling it out of the window of a car.
Now that is true on the face of it. No doubt. And that pithy sentiment is where I'm going to spin this off from. (because nobody really gives a fuck about Imus or nappy headed anymore)
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Originally Posted by godfry n. glad
If you don't want somebody to use a degratory term to describe you, don't glorify it, publicize it, and make beaucoup bucks off of it.
The link is broken, but here is the story on that. Page 1Page 2
The author is still around. S. Renee Mitchell
But that's another story.
Let's return to
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The context of one gay man saying "Hey, faggot" to another gay man is different from the context of a putative heterosexual man yelling it out of the window of a car.
That brings up something very interesting.
Spoiler alert
It's fuck all cold outside and civilization has pretty much been put on hold at the moment. Nobody can go anywhere, which means I can't work, my wife can't work, we are stuck at home. I woke up and the house is freezing cold. I've literally never experienced the level of misery that is going on outside at the moment. That brings up all kind of topics, but this one, this topic caught my attention 12 hours ago. And I want to finish the thoughts it inspired. That some of you reading this think you know my intent is humorous to me. You have no idea, but like Disobey, probably think your thoughts are 100% true, and everybody else is suspect lol
Here's the truth. I can't do anything that would make noise right now. No cleaning, no organizing, can't write or play music, TV is in the near future, but only for a few minutes, can't cook, do dishes or anything that might wake the wife. (she would kill me, literally try to kill me if I did)
So I'm typing out shit, to you, yes you, but with the full understanding it won't matter at all. Not even a tiny little bit. And I like that. If I thought any of this would garner attention, have any consequences, would mean interactions with you, I simply wouldn't do it.
There is great freedom in being a nobody, even more so when the scant audience is a bunch of jaded cynical assholes that also don't matter at all.
Don't take that the wrong way. I respect you for it.
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The context of one gay man saying "Hey, faggot" to another gay man is different from the context of a putative heterosexual man yelling it out of the window of a car.
The exact same thing is true for all kinds of words. Phrases. Even the way we look at somebody. It's not just the negative ones.
Let me give an example.
The context of a man saying "You are so hot, I want to fuck you so bad" to his loving partner, is different from the context of a putative heterosexual man yelling it out of the window of a car.
At anyone they don't know. Especially a woman. Or a child. Or to almost everybody they do know. If it's close friends, his bros, our "putative heterosexual man" could actually yell that at his Frat bro and it would be funny to them.
But if any other man, gay or straight, black or white, said it to our fictional "putative heterosexual man", it wouldn't be good.
Other examples, of words that people can say to each other, but strangers can't say without offense, or worse. It would be most unwelcome, maybe threatening.
Come here and give me a hug.
Give Daddy a kiss.
Hey Baby. Hi Sweetheart. Oh Darling. Howdy good looking. ooh, that's sexy.
There's a lot more than that. None of them have to do with race or gender. It's not in-group vs out-group. In fact, those interactions would be rare, compared to the everyday stress of a big city full os strangers.
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It's all about the context and the intent. Yes, in some situations, your intent is more likely to be misinterpreted, even if you don't mean it that way. But more often when these things come up, it's not a misunderstanding at all.
It's not all about the intent. There is also the situation.
And I would venture the men vs women is far more common than any race hate. Even worse, creepy old men vs young men and women.
Lecherous creep fuckers with positions of power. Let's talk about the lack of outrage over that shit.
Or not.
__________________
"Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, "Is it reasonable?""
I wanted to start a topic about the concept described, but after dealing with the difficulty of even explaining it, trying to communicate the idea, I'm glad I didn't.
tldr
It's not just in-group words being used by an out-group, it's way more than that. Nappy headed ho is an easy target, low hanging fruit, a slow pitch right over the plate.
The much deeper and possibly important shit is just ignored.
Much like this topic from 17 years ago.
__________________
"Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, "Is it reasonable?""
I wanted to start a topic about the concept described, but after dealing with the difficulty of even explaining it, trying to communicate the idea, I'm glad I didn't.
tldr
It's not just in-group words being used by an out-group, it's way more than that. Nappy headed ho is an easy target, low hanging fruit, a slow pitch right over the plate.
The much deeper and possibly important shit is just ignored.
Much like this topic from 17 years ago.
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__________________
"Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, "Is it reasonable?""
I think that Qingdai has touched on an important aspect of this controversy, one that seems to have been largely ignored in the public debate. I find Imus' language more offensive than the language used by rap artists because of the context.
It's not the words that matter, it is who is saying them. Or rather what we think about the person saying them.
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__________________
"Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, "Is it reasonable?""
The more I ponder that, the more strange it becomes. Censorship isn't just about the words, or even ideas. It's about WHO IS SAYING THEM
Which is very very different
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__________________
"Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, "Is it reasonable?""
Re: Where's the outrage?
Re: Where's the outrage?
Re: Where's the outrage?
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