A revolution in thought

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I thought you told me social media wasn't a good avenue for you, when I urged you to market through social media?

It's not the best avenue, but I have no choice if I want to spread this knowledge on a shoestring budget. I have to pull out all the stops no matter how uncomfortable this method of advertising will be. I just read an article that scientists, in order to keep up with the times, need to join twitter. They cannot depend on putting out articles that will get the attention they want without using social media. Thankfully, it doesn't cost money and can bring me huge rewards. I am trying to change my website so that when people come to it, it will draw them in. My father's picture and bio should be on the author's page, not the home page, which I am going to change. Then I will write something like: NO MORE WARS BY 2025!!!! Then I will give them more information about the discovery.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Nope.

Yet for several posts (not just one slip) you tried to say all behavior is due to programming. You are not being consistent at all.

And where have your "certain" outputs gone now?

I am using the word programming in order that we can communicate, but in reality we are not robots in the sense of reacting to inputs without our permission. I've said this all along. The agent is involved in his own determined choices, which is causing so much confusion with this issue that I don't know if it is resolvable in this thread. Lessans clearly explains that being caused does not mean that we are being controlled by something external to us, as this definition of programming (the standard definition of determinism) implies.

[Spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I am working with someone to improve my website. We're working out a payment plan. My goal is to first create a flipbook which will give me the ability to sell my ebook at a very low cost. Then I will begin marketing through social media and other avenues that will bring in traffic.

Working with... working out...

What have you actually done?

[LadyShea]

As I have been saying all along, the terms "free will" and "determinism" are pretty much meaningless and useless as there is no single, universal understanding of either term and neither describe any kind of observable reality. They are used to mean all sorts of things. I think that author described the real world accurately.

You, yourself change your own usage of determinism all the time. Now you are talking about all causation.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

There is confusion when you use the term "programming". I am using it in order that we can communicate, but in reality we are not robots in the sense of reacting to inputs without our permission. I've said this all along. The agent is involved in his own determined choices, which is causing so much confusion with this issue that I don't know if it is resolvable in this thread. Lessans clearly explains that being caused does not mean that we are being controlled by something external to us, as this definition of programming (the standard definition of determinism) implies.

I didn't introduce the term programming, you did.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I didn't introduce the term programming, you did.

Doesn't matter. Regardless of who introduced it, that is the typical idea of what determinism means. Is it any wonder that people are so against it? Who wants to be a robot with no contribution that we can take credit for?

[LadyShea]

You said all behavior was due to "programming" leading to "specific outputs". Are you backing away from that now or is that your position?

[Ymir's blood]

I like the Lysol ad with the spiderweb best.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

Working with... working out...

What have you actually done?

Spacemonkey, I just told you that I'm working with someone who will be able to help me with wordpress. Once I clean up my website, I can move forward with promoting the book, but I can't promote the book when the website is incomplete.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

You said all behavior was due to "programming" leading to "specific outputs". Are you backing away from that now or is that your position?

That is how computers work. Plug in something that the computer understands, which is then calculated within the framework of the computer's capabilities, and out comes a response. Depending on the subject matter, computers can already compare certain data and spit out the best response in relation to what it has been programmed to do. Humans are similar but they are much more complex. They compare and analyze different data (input) and will spit out (so to speak) a certain response in relation to their knowledge base (software) and their genetics (hardware). The only difference is that with humans there are many more variables to consider when making a choice since we have emotions and a will, although not a free one. Therefore, we are more than passive recipients; we are active participants that navigate the direction our lives take.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

As I have been saying all along, the terms "free will" and "determinism" are pretty much meaningless and useless as there is no single, universal understanding of either term and neither describe any kind of observable reality. They are used to mean all sorts of things. I think that author described the real world accurately.

You, yourself change your own usage of determinism all the time. Now you are talking about all causation.

Actually he did not. Bugs do not have a free will even if they come up with a novel way to do something in response to some blockage in their normal activities. As I stated, being able to create something even if it appears to be unrelated to what came before it, does not mean there isn't a cause. People hold lots and lots of information in their heads and it's all categorized. A new idea will come out of [seemingly] nowhere and at the most inconvenient time, but it should be obvious that this new idea has an origin; it comes from a person's talents (genetics) and knowledge base. I'm sure you've said to yourself as I have, "Where did that idea come from; it just popped into my head?" You didn't author it; the information that you already held worked out a problem to create something novel. Yes, it feels good to create something new. Most people hope to contribute to this world in some positive way, but if will is not free (which it isn't), we cannot take total credit for our accomplishments, and we can't take total blame for our fumbles.

I believe everything in the universe is caused, even those situations that appear random. But we're talking about the human will, true, so let's stick with that. There are many ways to observe the unreality of free will, although Lessans' observations were undeniably sound. The terms people use make the issue of free will versus determinism appear meaningless and useless because everyone is using their own pet definition, but this issue is anything but meaningless since the knowledge that man's will is not free and the discovery that lies locked behind this door is the only way permanent peace can be guaranteed.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

but I can't promote the book when the website is not enticing enough.

So you understand that you have to 'Trick' people into opening the book, and then hope that if they are dumb enough to fall for your trick, some of them will be stupid enough to fall for what is in the book?

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

The only difference is that with humans there are many more variables to consider when making a choice since we have emotions and a will, although not a free one. Therefore, we are more than passive recipients; we are active participants that navigate the direction our lives take.

Being active participants is like saying that we can direct the course of our lives, and that is saying we have free will.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I believe everything in the universe is caused,

Cause does not negate free will it only is another factor influencing free will.

[peacegirl]

Hooray, I finally got the audio fixed so now people can hear my father read Chapter One of Beyond the Framework of Modern Thought (his sixth book) as they read along.

Untitled Document

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

As I have been saying all along, the terms "free will" and "determinism" are pretty much meaningless and useless as there is no single, universal understanding of either term and neither describe any kind of observable reality. They are used to mean all sorts of things.

Such would not be the case if everyone would just agree to adopt Lessan's obviously superior and more accurate definitions of those terms. Can't you see how easy this would all be if only you and others of your ilk would lose your blinders and abandon your ridiculous prejudices?

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by Angakuk

Such would not be the case if everyone would just agree to adopt Lessan's obviously superior and more accurate definitions of those terms. Can't you see how easy this would all be if only you and others of your ilk would lose your blinders and abandon your ridiculous prejudices?

The Sheep look up.

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by thedoc

The Sheep look up.

The Sheep Look Up

[Spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Spacemonkey, I just told you that I'm working with someone who will be able to help me with wordpress. Once I clean up my website, I can move forward with promoting the book, but I can't promote the book when the website is not enticing enough.

So you haven't actually done anything yet? You still haven't started marketing?

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

So you haven't actually done anything yet? You still haven't started marketing?

No I haven't. I have to do first things first.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

As I have been saying all along, the terms "free will" and "determinism" are pretty much meaningless and useless as there is no single, universal understanding of either term and neither describe any kind of observable reality. They are used to mean all sorts of things. I think that author described the real world accurately.

You, yourself change your own usage of determinism all the time. Now you are talking about all causation.

The word determinism is synonymous with causation, although the confusion arises when we think of ourselves as being programmed to do something before we even do it, as if to say we have no choice but to pick a certain option. Do you see the problem here? That is why Lessans' observations are so important in this regard because he explains the problem with the definition (remember, definitions mean nothing where reality is concerned) since the word "cause" is misleading unless it is qualified.

Determinism is the philosophical idea that every event or state of affairs, including every human decision and action, is the inevitable and necessary consequence of antecedent states of affairs.

Determinism

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Angakuk

Such would not be the case if everyone would just agree to adopt Lessan's obviously superior and more accurate definitions of those terms. Can't you see how easy this would all be if only you and others of your ilk would lose your blinders and abandon your ridiculous prejudices?

This is not about losing blinders or adopting Lessans' more accurate definition. He did not create a definition. He made certain observations over the course of many years and from those observations, he made certain inferences based on sound reasoning. Definitions have nothing to do with it.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

The word determinism is synonymous with causation, although the confusion arises when we think of ourselves as being programmed to do something before we even do it, as if to say we have no choice but to pick a certain option. Do you see the problem here? That is why Lessans' observations are so important in this regard because he explains the problem with the definition (remember, definitions mean nothing where reality is concerned) since the word "cause" is misleading unless it is qualified.

Determinism is the philosophical idea that every event or state of affairs, including every human decision and action, is the inevitable and necessary consequence of antecedent states of affairs.

Determinism

Uh some people use determinism as a synonym for causation, but not everyone. And yes, definitions and terms do not always reflect reality. That was my WHOLE point. See where I said "the terms "free will" and "determinism" are pretty much meaningless and useless as there is no single, universal understanding of either term and neither describe any kind of observable reality."

Nomological determinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And did you continue reading the article you linked to or follow the links?

Compatibilists argue that determinism is compatible with human freedom, and that indeterminism is not compatible or at best incoherent. They feel (correctly) that there must be a deterministic or causal connection between our will and our actions. This allows us to take responsibility for our actions, including credit for the good and blame for the bad.

As long as the agent is free from external coercion, they have freedom of action, which is the compatibilist freedom we have according to Thomas Hobbes and David Hume

.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

As I stated, being able to create something even if it appears to be unrelated to what came before it, does not mean there isn't a cause.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, arguing against things having causes. Get that out of your head because it is a strawman.

People hold lots and lots of information in their heads and it's all categorized. A new idea will come out of [seemingly] nowhere and at the most inconvenient time, but it should be obvious that this new idea has an origin; it comes from a person's talents (genetics) and knowledge base. I'm sure you've said to yourself as I have, "Where did that idea come from; it just popped into my head?" You didn't author it; the information that you already held worked out a problem to create something novel.

The information in my brain is me, so any product of my mind, whether consciously contemplated or unconsciously produced, is absolutely authored by me. You are separating conscious thought from the unconscious workings of our brain when there is no separation. It's all one integrated organism...as discussed in the blog post I linked you to! Did you not read it, or did you not understand it?

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Not true. You can break it down but it doesn't change the fundamental meaning. So don't use the word "cause" (it is confusing as Lessans stated), but it does mean the following:

Determinism is the inevitable and necessary consequence of antecedent states of affairs.

And yes, definitions and terms do not always reflect reality.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

That was my WHOLE point. See where I said "the terms "free will" and "determinism" are pretty much meaningless and useless as there is no single, universal understanding of either term and neither describe any kind of observable reality."

A definition is a statement that explains the meaning of a term, that's it. The definition of determinism is very specific. It is not meant to prove anything. Only astute observation or empirical testing can prove that something is true.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Nomological determinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And did you continue reading the article you linked to or follow the links?

.

LadyShea, that is not determinism in the strict sense of the word no matter how compatibilists try to make these two ideologies, well, compatible. They are not. It's a bait and switch game. At first they say man's will is not free, the bait they need to draw people in who are leaning in the direction of determinism, and then switch the true meaning of the term by saying man's will is free under certain conditions. This is their way of satisfying both positions, but in reality it's a a total contradiction and under these false pretenses the terms are meaningless except for a way to justify blame and punishment (holding people morally responsible). That way they don't have to feel any cognitive/dissonance, but the truth is we cannot have free will if our choices are determined by antecedent events (the standard definition of determinism), just as we cannot be brain dead and alive at the same time. There is no in between.