A revolution in thought

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

How has he eviscerated competing products?

He did a series of articles tearing down a product, Adya Clarity, which is a competitor to a product he not only heavily promotes on his blog, but also has a financial interest in, Zeolite. These are water purification products using minerals.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

All you have to do is go online and google health products.

To achieve what?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I do not believe for one second that this guys' motives are as cold and calculating as you are making them out to be, that's why.

On what do you base your disbelief? What criteria do you use to evaluate people's motives?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Well I'm glad about that. Then don't make light of the fact that there has been hanky panky going on in the FDA, and that they did not disclose the true dangers of certain drugs even when they knew of the risks.

Then you should stop making light of the fact that a bunch of quacks sell untested products and perform untested treatments, to the tune of billions a year, and some of those products and treatments may be harmful...they aren't tested or regulated AT ALL!

The FDA is not perfect, drugs aren't perfect, but at least I can review information and data on various drugs and make an informed choice, something that can't be done with many natural products.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

They claimed certain drugs were safe and effective when they were not safe, and put thousands of people at risk of injury or death.

Look at the thousands of severe adverse reactions and deaths from Ephedra/Ma Huang, which was sold as a nutritional supplement and pushed by alternative health care people. Metabolife spent over 4 million dollars lobbying against the regulation of Ephedra. Why would they spend that kind of money trying to keep it unregulated if it wasn't because they were making loads and loads of money on the sales of the product?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

How can you compare these breaches of trust with Mike Adams who has hurt no one with his recommendations?

How do you know he has hurt no one? He isn't a doctor, so there is no review board to investigate any harm his recommendations may have caused.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I plead the 5th amendment. You will do whatever you can to use what I have said against me in the most unscientific way you can possibly muster to support your unproven position, so I will not continue this conversation as you will use it against me in very unobjective ways.

LOL, what? I am asking you to defend and clarify a statement you made. How am I being unscientific?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

How can you put in the same breath two completely different theories that have no relation to each other? That sounds very suspicous to me.

Suspicious how? I put forth examples of ideas that are freely expressed and believed by many people, and are heavily in the public realm, but are considered counterfactual according to "big brother" science, as a refutation to your statement that different points of view are prevented from entering the public realm.

I made a perfectly valid and clear argument, and you are pleading the 5th? That makes you look quite wacko.

[LadyShea]

I'll simplify it for you.

You made the following statements

Originally Posted by peacegirl

no one gets a chance to express their thoughts on a subject, because it's been monopolized by the "big brother of science" who has claimed all rights to this subject by virtue of making their theories FACTS. They don't have the right to do this.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

This prevents different points of view on a theory from ever entering the public realm because it's not considered "scientific", and science has the monopoly.

I refuted these claims with the fact that plenty of people freely and publicly express their thoughts on subjects, and the fact that plenty of different points of view are found and easily accessible in the public realm. My position is easily proven with Google or a trip to the bookstore.

Can you support your claims? Do you stand behind them? If so, please clarify your position because it doesn't mesh with reality at all.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

Actually, longitude and latitude are easily explained using a flat earth model. Simply draw a number of circles on your plate, one inside the other. Then draw straight lines from the centre of the plate to the edges.

the staight lines are the latitude. The circles are the longitude.

like this:

I know picky, picky, but you have it backwards the straight lines are longitude and the circles are latitude. Latitude is your distance from the poles and longitude is your position around the Earth on a meridian line going from pole to pole. both are measured in degrees, minutes, and seconds, based on a 360 degree circle, or 360 degrees from the north pole at the center to the edge where you will fall off.

Actually it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are aliens living on the flip side, and that explains all the UFO's, they are still working out the bugs in their navigation systems.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

He did a series of articles tearing down a product, Adya Clarity, which is a competitor to a product he not only heavily promotes on his blog, but also has a financial interest in, Zeolite. These are water purification products using minerals.

You won't let this go will you? You are putting the cart before the horse because you want him to be the nasty guy you imagine him to be. That is big time bias and holds no place in any scientific investigation. I trust this guy because he's trustworthy in my opinion. Just because he's selling zeolite doesn't make him out to ruin it for other people unless he sees a problem with their products. I do see the pharmaceutical industry as dangerous because they are ruthless when it comes to getting a product on the market if it's going to make them big bucks. Why are you picking on Mike Adams when there's a lot of pickins from the drug industry? Could it be because you don't want to expose the faulty empirical studies that give license to kill and maim?

Mike Adams ~ The 10 Worst Toxins Hidden In Vitamins, Supplements And Health Foods | Shift Frequency

Originally Posted by peacegirl

All you have to do is go online and google health products.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

To achieve what?

To achieve an unbiased review of products on the market. He's just giving his opinion (a very knowledgeable one at that). If people are in doubt, they can check out other points of view to make their decision.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I do not believe for one second that this guys' motives are as cold and calculating as you are making them out to be, that's why.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

On what do you base your disbelief? What criteria do you use to evaluate people's motives?

Because I have listened to him and I trust my intuition LadyShea. My intuition is usually right. I do not trust the pharmaceutical industry with a ten foot pole. You are entitled to think otherwise but your motives seem extremely one-sided. You may think the same about me. May the best man win.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I do think twice about all meds and procedures, and weigh those risks against the risks of not treating whatever the problem is. Of course I don't just blindly follow doctors orders. Do you really think everyone is a complete moron?

Well I'm glad about that. Then don't make light of the fact that there has been hanky panky going on in the FDA, and that they did not disclose the true dangers of certain drugs even when they knew of the risks.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Then you should stop making light of the fact that a bunch of quacks sell untested products and perform untested treatments, to the tune of billions a year, and some of those products and treatments may be harmful...they aren't tested or regulated AT ALL!

Money doesn't killed people. People kill people. If making money is the worst thing, I would rather trust that individual than trust an agency that has the absolute freedom to put a drug on the market that isn't safe. If you read the link above, Mike Adams will implicate anyone he feels is not honest in their reporting. He doesn't limit himself to mainstream medicine.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

The FDA is not perfect, drugs aren't perfect, but at least I can review information and data on various drugs and make an informed choice, something that can't be done with many natural products.

What the hell are you talking about? People can go to certain websites that disclose the formulations of a product and their grade. No one should just put something in their mouth without knowing what's in it. That's a given. But for you to defend the pharmaceutical industry just because they can convince people on television that their products will get you well [which is a big fat lie] and manipulate unsuspecting people into believing that the side-effects [which they're required to announce] aren't something to worry about is putting your head in the sand. It is worse than quackery because these advertisements are legitimized by mainstream media who are all in cahoots. I wonder why? ($$$) This is called collusion. Now tell me, who are the real crooks?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

They claimed certain drugs were safe and effective when they were not safe, and put thousands of people at risk of injury or death.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Look at the thousands of severe adverse reactions and deaths from Ephedra/Ma Huang, which was sold as a nutritional supplement and pushed by alternative health care people. Metabolife spent over 4 million dollars lobbying against the regulation of Ephedra. Why would they spend that kind of money trying to keep it unregulated if it wasn't because they were making loads and loads of money on the sales of the product?

I agree that this product hurt people, and they took it off the market after finding out that people were having heart attacks. Metabolife was misguided. I'm not saying that everyone who sells a natural product is doing it for the right reason. But you're talking about one product and one company. It is imperative that you read the inserts of a product whether it's natural or synthetic. Even so, you're talking about a drop in the bucket compared to patented products that the body doesn't recognize which could cause serious short and long term side-effects. Seriously, how can you even compare unless you can't accept being wrong?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

How can you compare these breaches of trust with Mike Adams who has hurt no one with his recommendations?

Originally Posted by LadyShea

How do you know he has hurt no one? He isn't a doctor, so there is no review board to investigate any harm his recommendations may have caused.

Because his products (e.g., astaxanthin, spirulina, chlorella, cocoa, chia seeds, coconut, etc.) have had no reported adverse effects. Unless taken in abundance (beyond what is recommended) there haven't been any cases where someone has been seriously harmed. Even drinking too much water can be dangerous, but we drink water because we need it. You are doing a lousy job at defending your position.

[Dragar]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I do see the pharmaceutical industry as dangerous because they are ruthless when it comes to getting a product on the market if it's going to make them big bucks.

Yes, they're so ruthless about making a profit that they spend billions developing new drugs (that don't work, and kill people!), and ignore all the 'natural products' that the 'alternative medicine' people advocate (that do work, and make rainbows come out of your backside!). Ruthless, like a pirate they are!

[Vivisectus]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

What about using a compass which points north, south, east, west? Doesn't that show depth?

No, it shows coordinates according to a grid. That grid can be flat or sitting like a net around a globe.

What you're saying is that because they believe there is a preponderance of evidence in their favor, they feel they are being treated unfairly, and this is the exact situation that exists with the claim regarding the eyes.

Not exactly, though I am sure this would be their point of view. I am saying that they want to believe the earth is flat for various reasons, and that this leads them to treat evidence in favour of this idea according to a different standard than evidence that is against it.

For example, quite a few of them believe the earth must be flat because it is described as such in the Bible. They assume the Bible is correct, and then work backwards, looking for anything that works witht heir idea, and thinking up ways to discredit anything that works against it.

Thus, images from space are discredited on account of the global conspiracy they believe is producing them, while the faulty experiments conducted by a 19th century surveyor are considered compelling evidence.

You have a very similar approach.

All I can say to this charge is that Lessans was an observer of reality.

Yes, all you can do is claim that, but you can never support it.

Moreover, the comparison isn't fair. Just because flat earthers say they are right even though, according to scientists, they are wrong given the compelling evidence to the contrary, does not mean that just because Lessans says he is right even though, according to scientists, he is wrong given the compelling evidence to the contrary, that he is necessarily wrong.

What is unfair about it? You have even less convincing evidence than they do. And like them you demand special treatment: you happily dismiss the flat earth theory, but you demand that your idea is not dismissed.

These are two different cases and they stand on their own merit. It is too easy to classify a claim as wrong just because people who challenge other established theories sound similar.

Indeed they are different cases, and I am treating both according to their merit. The problem is that you do not: you demand special treatment for your idea. You demand we ignore evidence against it and not dismiss it, and that we accept key parts of it without any evidence... without even a case in its favour having been made in the first place!

[LadyShea]

But for you to defend the pharmaceutical industry just because they can convince people on television that their products will get you well [which is a big fat lie] and manipulate unsuspecting people into believing that the side-effects [which they're required to announce] aren't something to worry about

You seem to think people are just incredibly stupid and don't do any research. I know that drugs can possibly hurt people. So can supplements and natural treatments. Both can also help people. I take drugs when needed, I see doctors when needed, and I also use supplements and some alternative treatments.

Pharmaceuticals can and do save lives. Have you never taken an antibiotic? Never taken an aspirin or Tylenol or Advil? Has anyone you loved had diabetes and required medications? Do you know any heart patients alive today because of medications and procedures? Thyroid patients? Cancer survivors? How about any stroke victims who have survived and recovered because of quick administration of clot busting drugs?

No industry is perfect, but the pharmaceutical industry is not totally and completely evil either. Not all alternative practitioners are quacks, but Mike Adams is not a practitioner at all. He has no health credentials of any kind, not as a naturopath even. He is a histrionic nutcase and uses celebrity deaths to make money. He talks people out of treatments that might save their lives. How do you know someone didn't die of cancer because they listened to him and chose against chemo? You can't know if his recommendation have hurt people because there are no statistics to review. No evidence. He is definitely an excellent marketer...maybe even a marketing genius.

[Stephen Maturin]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

[Mike Adams] doesn't limit himself to mainstream medicine.

That's true. He's also a 9/11 Troofer and Sandy Hook denier, among many other things.

Originally Posted by Dragar

make rainbows come out of your backside!

show spoiler

[Vivisectus]

We have established that if you use the standard for determining plausability that you demand for your idea to the theory of a flat earth, it comes out as plausible. And yet you are happy enough to dismiss the flat earth theory out of hand.

It is pretty clear that you apply a special standard to your book that you do not apply to other ideas. That is why you remain convinced it is correct even though every other person who has come into contact with it is convinced it is not. All these other people do not have a special reason to dismiss the evidence against efferent sight, or to ignore the fact that it does not even try to make a case for conscience working as it describes.

You do. And the flat earth example has proven that this is the case: you yourself started to admit that you could not dismiss the flat earth theory based on the standards that you wanted everyone to apply to the book.

Now there is nothing wrong with holding such a belief. Loads of people do. But you cannot ask other people to accept it the way you do based on facts, logic, science, or what you would probably call "mathematics". You can ask them to believe it on emotional grounds: you can explain it requires a leap of faith.

But with the book as it is now, you simply have no case with which to appeal to reason.

[Vivisectus]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

He is definitely an excellent marketer...maybe even a marketing genius.

He learned that back when he was a Scientologist. He also inherited their factose intolerance.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I'll simplify it for you.

You made the following statements

I refuted these claims with the fact that plenty of people freely and publicly express their thoughts on subjects, and the fact that plenty of different points of view are found and easily accessible in the public realm. My position is easily proven with Google or a trip to the bookstore.

Can you support your claims? Do you stand behind them? If so, please clarify your position because it doesn't mesh with reality at all.

All I'm saying is that science is treated with enormous respect, just like doctors. Unfortunately, there is always the danger that science can be wrong just like doctors can be wrong. The type of society we live in doesn't allow anyone from outside this inner circle to be taken seriously, which is a terrible injustice because a genuine discovery could go unrecognized.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Dragar

Yes, they're so ruthless about making a profit that they spend billions developing new drugs (that don't work, and kill people!), and ignore all the 'natural products' that the 'alternative medicine' people advocate (that do work, and make rainbows come out of your backside!). Ruthless, like a pirate they are!

They are developing more and more drugs that do the same thing as older drugs that are known to be relatively safe and effective. Do you have any doubt as to why they are doing this? Did you read the article I posted awhile back?

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2012/...at%20the%20fda

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

You seem to think people are just incredibly stupid and don't do any research. I know that drugs can possibly hurt people. So can supplements and natural treatments. Both can also help people. I take drugs when needed, I see doctors when needed, and I also use supplements and some alternative treatments.

Pharmaceuticals can and do save lives. Have you never taken an antibiotic? Never taken an aspirin or Tylenol or Advil? Has anyone you loved had diabetes and required medications? Do you know any heart patients alive today because of medications and procedures? Thyroid patients? Cancer survivors? How about any stroke victims who have survived and recovered because of quick administration of clot busting drugs?

There is a place for medicine but it's gotten way out of hand. We know what antibiotics can do, and they are a lifesaver when they are needed. They can also create superbugs if used inappropriately. It is amazing how far medicine has come, but there is no denying that there is a dark side. I don't know how true this is so don't quote me, but I read there was a natural clot busting herb that can do the same thing as the clot busting drug that is presently used in hospitals. The only difference was that this clot busting herb only cost $5.00 whereas this patented clot buster cost around $3,000. Hmmmm.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

No industry is perfect, but the pharmaceutical industry is not totally and completely evil either. Not all alternative practitioners are quacks, but Mike Adams is not a practitioner at all. He has no health credentials of any kind, not as a naturopath even. He is a histrionic nutcase and uses celebrity deaths to make money. He talks people out of treatments that might save their lives. How do you know someone didn't die of cancer because they listened to him and chose against chemo? You can't know if his recommendation have hurt people because there are no statistics to review. No evidence. He is definitely an excellent marketer...maybe even a marketing genius.

I so disagree with you regarding Mike Adams that we don't see eye to eye at all. Mike Adams does not have to be a practitioner or have any credentials to be an expert in his field. You have made your mind up that he is a no goodnick. That prejudices you. As far as not getting the best care because a person may not choose chemo as a first line of defense is, once again, putting the cart before the horse. How do you know that chemotherapy is the right decision for everyone? Chemotherapy has been known to wipe out people's immune systems and make their lives miserable. How can the doctors give patients only this one option? What if some people consider the treatment worse than the disease? What if they don't want to poison their good cells in an effort to regain their health? The point is people are entitled to make up their own mind. Nothing should be forced down someone's throat (especially parents) and that's what the medical profession has done, until recently, when alternative medicine has gotten the respect it deserves.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

All I'm saying is that science is treated with enormous respect, just like doctors. Unfortunately, there is always the danger that science can be wrong just like doctors can be wrong.

Aha! So your problem was never about science stifling or preventing the expression of opposing viewpoints, but that various opposing viewpoints aren't automatically respected and accepted by everyone. They can earn that respect by bringing on the evidence, just like science does.

The type of society we live in doesn't allow anyone from outside this inner circle to be taken seriously, which is a terrible injustice because a genuine discovery could go unrecognized.

You are still incorrect. Lots and lots of people take all manner of outside the "inner circle" viewpoints very seriously. Almost half of Americans believe in Creationism and 45% believe in ghosts. 25% believe in astrology. About half the public believes in ESP

Mike Adams and Joe Mercola and other natural health proponents aren't talking to themselves, are they? They have many, many readers.

So, if a genuine discovery is indeed genuine, there is no reason at all it should have any trouble finding believers to promote it....certainly science is not stifling anyone's expression, nor is science preventing anyone from putting their discoveries into the public realm. Do you retract your statements?

[Vivisectus]

Originally Posted by Peacegirl

Mike Adams does not have to be a practitioner or have any credentials to be an expert in his field.

The field in question being medicine... good grief.

[LadyShea]

Because I have listened to him and I trust my intuition LadyShea. My intuition is usually right.

I trust my intuition too. I have also found my intuition is usually right. My intuition tells me he is a huckster.

My intuition is also telling me you are considering or are already courting Mike Adams as a "celebrity endorsement" for the book. Have you emailed him, or are you just going to send him a copy?

ETA: He's a germ theory denialist. Do you agree that no diseases are caused by bacteria or viruses, peacegirl?

[LadyShea]

How do you know that chemotherapy is the right decision for everyone?

I didn't claim that it is

Chemotherapy has been known to wipe out people's immune systems and make their lives miserable.

True, but cancer has been known to kill people after making their lives miserable, and chemo may help in some cases.

How can the doctors give patients only this one option?

What makes you think doctors give cancer patients only one option?

What if some people consider the treatment worse than the disease?

Some people do consider it worse than the disease and those people choose to not do medical treatments. My grandfather chose not to medically treat his cancer.

What if they don't want to poison their good cells in an effort to regain their health?

Then they should not do treatment.

The point is people are entitled to make up their own mind.

Of course, I never said otherwise

Nothing should be forced down someone's throat (especially parents) and that's what the medical profession has done

Um, no, nobody is forced to take cancer treatments. We discussed this already.

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

Taking a long time to be wrong does not make you right.

Indeed! It has been said that practice makes perfect. It follows then that with enough practice at being wrong one can eventually become perfectly wrong. Lessans appears to have achieved this particular form of apotheosis, and peacegirl is right there with him.

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Also, how did he define "will"?

As Durant's first name?

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Lessans wants to prove his case.

In that case he should have provided evidence to support his claims.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Nothing should be forced down someone's throat (especially parents) and that's what the medical profession has done, until recently, when alternative medicine has gotten the respect it deserves.

I agree. The very thought of having my parents (even just one of them) forced down my throat makes me gag.

[Spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

Great, so we're back on then? When do your books arrive?

Bump.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

What makes you think doctors give cancer patients only one option?

In my experience, in a situation where medical treatment was needed, the doctor always suggested several possible courses of treatment. It has been entirely my choice which course to take but non treatment usually didn't have a very good outcome.

[LadyShea]

I am curious as to the reason for this latest return after exiting, peacegirl.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

No, it shows coordinates according to a grid. That grid can be flat or sitting like a net around a globe.

Excuse me if I'm just being uninformed, but have you ever seen a compass that points to all 4 directiions? In The ones I am familiar with, the needle always points to the North pole and you have to figure out the other directions from the markings on the face of the dial.

As an aside I have driven on highways and have gone in 3 directions at once. I'm still watching for one where I can go all 4 directions at the same time.