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06-29-2011, 03:26 AM
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Admin of THIEVES and SLUGABEDS
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Re: Return to Gender 101
The discussion on personality disorders vs. mental illness is now a thread of its own.
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06-29-2011, 04:19 AM
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an angry unicorn or a non-murdering leprechaun
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edge of Society
Gender: Female
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Re: Return to Gender 101
I think my Woolf/Hemingway poast belongs here rather than there though. It was more gendery and goes with the discussion of Ball.
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06-29-2011, 05:05 AM
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Admin of THIEVES and SLUGABEDS
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Done.
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06-29-2011, 06:45 AM
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Dogehlaugher -Scrutari
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northwest
Gender: Female
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Re: Return to Gender 101
So now I can post other gender-y topics?
Because I found this blog post, that was pretty good.
Filling a Much-Needed Void : real women
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06-29-2011, 01:52 PM
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simple country microbiologist hyperchicken
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: georgia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by wei yau
Is this the sock puppet mafia thread now? If so, I think ITSOZAZ is pretending to be bey. He could have at least tried to change his posting style.
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I know its crazy to think that a man setting himself on fire is a bad thing. Thanks for the insight wei.
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06-29-2011, 01:54 PM
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simple country microbiologist hyperchicken
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: georgia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demimonde
I highly recommend Michel Foucault's book Madness and Civilization also released in 2009 as History of Madness
To guide the thread back to gender, imagine now that symptoms of mental illness are given a gendered stamp of approval. The hysterical woman is made that way, the aggressive man is born to that role. Foucault discusses how unreason can illuminate truth or a lie.
Take for example what I call the Crazy Brilliant Modern Woman Author Suicide Club, (a reference which once made a professor of mine physically recoil, despite her familiarity with Foucault and that she studied under Derrida.) Woolf for example illuminated great truths about the roles of women in her society despite her illness and attempts to confine her. Art liberated her through unreason to criticize her society that forbid her from entering the library. She found a truth that was outside of society. Many women with similar mental issues failed along side her, indeed eventually she lost her own battle.
I can see Ball's manifesto as a discourse of delirium. There is a great deal of gendered pressure that he embodies and informs his writing even as he loses touch with reality and falls into the lies of massaging facts to support his reality. Ball pleads to his reader that he is a "coffee and cheeseburger kind of guy" and a "good soldier." There is no art to his writing though, only pain.
Then consider Hemingway as a counter point to Woolf. Conversely, as a brother to Ball.
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What exactly is unreason? I agree with alot of this post and it makes some fine points. I don't think he was an evil guy, I think he was disturbed and caught up in the system.
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06-29-2011, 02:02 PM
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nominalistic existential pragmaticist
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cheeeeseland
Gender: Female
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qingdai
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Thank you very much for that. I'm having a radical hysterectomy in less than a month, and it's bringing me very sad thoughts of if I still will be able to consider myself a woman after the surgery. To me, this is far worse than losing breasts, this is the removal of my own personal identity of what it is to be a woman.
Not that I don't think ovaries are important to others when they think of their own gender, it just is that way with me, for my body. I'm working over ideas so that I can modify this, and your article clearly implies my way of looking at myself is blinkered and reductive, and can be improved.
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06-29-2011, 03:09 PM
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Tellifying
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyelzu
Quote:
Originally Posted by wei yau
Is this the sock puppet mafia thread now? If so, I think ITSOZAZ is pretending to be bey. He could have at least tried to change his posting style.
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I know its crazy to think that a man setting himself on fire is a bad thing. Thanks for the insight wei.
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Precisely the kind of guy who should have been let back into his house after being charged with domestic abuse.
I didn't realize that the back pedals worked on your bike.
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06-29-2011, 03:29 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Porter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qingdai
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Thank you very much for that. I'm having a radical hysterectomy in less than a month, and it's bringing me very sad thoughts of if I still will be able to consider myself a woman after the surgery. To me, this is far worse than losing breasts, this is the removal of my own personal identity of what it is to be a woman.
Not that I don't think ovaries are important to others when they think of their own gender, it just is that way with me, for my body. I'm working over ideas so that I can modify this, and your article clearly implies my way of looking at myself is blinkered and reductive, and can be improved.
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Best of luck with all aspects.
I have all my lady parts (sans one fallopian tube), but they didn't work as intended. Infertility includes some weird emotional aspects like "I can't even make a baby, which any alley cat can do, so I am lesser than other females". Not exactly the same, but I can empathize from within the ballpark.
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06-29-2011, 03:56 PM
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simple country microbiologist hyperchicken
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: georgia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by wei yau
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyelzu
Quote:
Originally Posted by wei yau
Is this the sock puppet mafia thread now? If so, I think ITSOZAZ is pretending to be bey. He could have at least tried to change his posting style.
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I know its crazy to think that a man setting himself on fire is a bad thing. Thanks for the insight wei.
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Precisely the kind of guy who should have been let back into his house after being charged with domestic abuse.
I didn't realize that the back pedals worked on your bike.
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thats an excellent point wei, as always, the fact that he set himself on fire right after the incident definitely shows that he was a danger, a good thing that it didn't take years of a most likely degenerating condition to get to the point where he set himself on fire or else you wouldn't have a point.
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06-29-2011, 04:10 PM
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Tellifying
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyelzu
Quote:
Originally Posted by wei yau
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyelzu
Quote:
Originally Posted by wei yau
Is this the sock puppet mafia thread now? If so, I think ITSOZAZ is pretending to be bey. He could have at least tried to change his posting style.
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I know its crazy to think that a man setting himself on fire is a bad thing. Thanks for the insight wei.
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Precisely the kind of guy who should have been let back into his house after being charged with domestic abuse.
I didn't realize that the back pedals worked on your bike.
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thats an excellent point wei, as always, the fact that he set himself on fire right after the incident definitely shows that he was a danger, a good thing that it didn't take years of a most likely degenerating condition to get to the point where he set himself on fire or else you wouldn't have a point.
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And that has what the fuck all to do with the court preventing him from returning to his home?
That's really the only point you made that I have a problem with. Does it suck that he chose such a hard way to go out. Fuck yeah. Did that dude have some serious fucking problems? Absolutely. Was it something that he probably had his whole damned adult life. Most fucking likely.
Does any of that mean that he should have been allowed back in his home after being charged with domestic abuse?
Not by my lights.
And frankly, I'm kinda surprised that you felt he should have been allowed to return home. Did he have to be homeless? Probably not. Maybe the state should have him institutionalized if they thought he was a danger? Maybe deny bail? Maybe a whole bunch of other things, just not go back to the home.
Oh, but I'm sorry, you didn't want to discuss the nuts and bolts of the case, right? I mean, without knowing the details. Not that the absence of details should prevent you from declaring that you're against the decision to bar him from his home.
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06-29-2011, 04:13 PM
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simple country microbiologist hyperchicken
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: georgia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
I'm not sure of the facts and do not want to talk out of my ass, but yeah I am not comfortable with a system where an accusation can result in homelessness at least temporary. I am against people being punished for being accused. I am against the fucking schadenfreude, your damn right.
and you implied that him setting himself on fire years later shows that he should have been barred from the house, and wei, thats just fucking stupid.
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06-29-2011, 04:14 PM
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simple country microbiologist hyperchicken
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: georgia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
also, wei, coming by and making sideways insults to michael is also a bitch thing to do.
and added fuckall to the conversation.
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06-29-2011, 04:18 PM
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Tellifying
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyelzu
also, wei, coming by and making sideways insults to michael is also a bitch thing to do.
and added fuckall to the conversation.
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You've know me for a while now, right? When have I not been a bitch?
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06-29-2011, 04:20 PM
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Clutchenheimer
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Making him homeless /= barring him from his home.
I oppose making anyone homeless. I have zero fucking problem with barring someone charged with abuse from the residence of those they are charged with abusing.
But that also ought to bring with it an institutional commitment to speedy (competent) resolution.
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Your very presence is making me itchy.
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06-29-2011, 04:22 PM
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Tellifying
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyelzu
I'm not sure of the facts and do not want to talk out of my ass, but yeah I am not comfortable with a system where an accusation can result in homelessness at least temporary. I am against people being punished for being accused.
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You keep saying "accused" instead of "charged", which is what he was. Is it because you don't think there's a significant distinction between the two or does the former help your case better than the latter?
Quote:
I am against the fucking schadenfreude, your damn right.
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Okay. Good for you?
Quote:
and you implied that him setting himself on fire years later shows that he should have been barred from the house, and wei, thats just fucking stupid.
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Agreed, not the best justification. I mean, not as good as being charged with the crime, then jailed and then released on bail. Not as good as those reasons. You're right there, brah.
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06-29-2011, 04:25 PM
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Clutchenheimer
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Porter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qingdai
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Thank you very much for that. I'm having a radical hysterectomy in less than a month, and it's bringing me very sad thoughts of if I still will be able to consider myself a woman after the surgery. To me, this is far worse than losing breasts, this is the removal of my own personal identity of what it is to be a woman.
Not that I don't think ovaries are important to others when they think of their own gender, it just is that way with me, for my body. I'm working over ideas so that I can modify this, and your article clearly implies my way of looking at myself is blinkered and reductive, and can be improved.
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I am privileged to know several beautiful, wonderful women, who exemplify a wide and admirable range of womanly awesomenesses, who have had this surgery.
For what it's worth.
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Your very presence is making me itchy.
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06-29-2011, 05:27 PM
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simple country microbiologist hyperchicken
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: georgia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by wei yau
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyelzu
I'm not sure of the facts and do not want to talk out of my ass, but yeah I am not comfortable with a system where an accusation can result in homelessness at least temporary. I am against people being punished for being accused.
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You keep saying "accused" instead of "charged", which is what he was. Is it because you don't think there's a significant distinction between the two or does the former help your case better than the latter?
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the former not the incredibly uncharitable latter.
Quote:
Quote:
I am against the fucking schadenfreude, your damn right.
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Okay. Good for you?
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sadly I suppose so.
Quote:
Quote:
and you implied that him setting himself on fire years later shows that he should have been barred from the house, and wei, thats just fucking stupid.
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Agreed, not the best justification.
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then maybe you shouldn't make it.
Quote:
I mean, not as good as being charged with the crime, then jailed and then released on bail. Not as good as those reasons. You're right there, brah.
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wei, being charged with a crime is nothing, it doesn't mean a person is guilty. and being arrested and making bail is what happens when you are charged with a crime.
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06-29-2011, 05:38 PM
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The cat that will listen
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Valley of the Sun
Gender: Female
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyelzu
I'm not sure of the facts and do not want to talk out of my ass, but yeah I am not comfortable with a system where an accusation can result in homelessness at least temporary. I am against people being punished for being accused.
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So what is your solution when a person is accused of abuse? Should the accuser + children be made homeless (in your eyes) or should the accused?
Who should bear the burden of having to find a place to live temporarily?
ETA: Also, in my experience, some men have a really hard with the idea that they have to pay for their soon-to-be-ex wife and children to stay in the family home--or with the idea that their income/assets are often marital/family assets and not THEIR OWN. (In my experience, it is usually financially dumb for anyone to remain in the marital home, but whatever.) Part of this is because the work that a woman does in support of a family--especially someone who has not worked outside the home--is devalued and because women tend not to be the breadwinners. This is separate from abuse or anything, just divorce/separation in general.
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06-29-2011, 05:56 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
wei, being charged with a crime is nothing, it doesn't mean a person is guilty. and being arrested and making bail is what happens when you are charged with a crime.
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So if an adult is charged with attempted murder of ,say, the parents whom they live with (and there was enough evidence to arrest them), you think that person should be allowed to return to their parents home while on bail awaiting trial? Really?
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06-29-2011, 06:17 PM
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Quote:
wei, being charged with a crime is nothing, it doesn't mean a person is guilty. and being arrested and making bail is what happens when you are charged with a crime.
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So if an adult is charged with attempted murder of ,say, the parents whom they live with (and there was enough evidence to arrest them), you think that person should be allowed to return to their parents home while on bail awaiting trial? Really?
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Speaking only in terms of California law, the criminal charges aspect is something different from the domestic violence aspect. A person is excluded from the home by a temporary restraining order, not ipso facto by being charged with a crime. Indeed, there need not necessarily be a criminal charge pending. But a restraining order, in the nature of an injunction, is an equitable remedy, and is administered and issued by a civil court. IOW, application must be made to a court, and evidence must be introduced which would support a restraining order. Restraining orders do not always necessarily include exclusion from the residence (though they commonly do); it would depend on the nature of the conduct at issue. In equitable cases, the court is required to weigh the risks and costs to each party, and the gravity of harm that would result, if the order did not issue. Such temporary orders may be issued on an emergency ex parte basis if the evidence shows that there is some imminent danger. The court must be satisfied that there is, in fact, an imminent danger that requires expedited action to avert serious harm, in order to act ex parte (without the other party present). Otherwise, the court will deny the orders and set hearing at a time when both parties have been noticed and are present. TRO's are not issued in a vacuum -- there MUST be a proper showing to obtain a restraining order.
ETA: And when initial temporary orders are issued ex parte, it truly is temporary. I forget how many days, but within a few days, another hearing is held for which both parties have had notice and at which both parties are present. At that hearing, both sides have a chance to present evidence to determine whether the temporary restraining order should remain in place.
ETA 2: This is not really different from what wildy said in post # 296 on the previous page.
#2665
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06-29-2011, 06:18 PM
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simple country microbiologist hyperchicken
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: georgia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Quote:
wei, being charged with a crime is nothing, it doesn't mean a person is guilty. and being arrested and making bail is what happens when you are charged with a crime.
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So if an adult is charged with attempted murder of ,say, the parents whom they live with (and there was enough evidence to arrest them), you think that person should be allowed to return to their parents home while on bail awaiting trial? Really?
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With this amount of information? that there was enough evidence to charge them? that doesn't really tell me much. So yes.
An accusation can be enough to get someone arrested. I saw my sister have my father arrested by just going and swearing out a warrant. I don't know if its typical, I do know that its possible and I am uncomfortable with depriving a person of their home based on an accusation.
If you tell me, their is due process, that there was a hearing and they don't just err on the side of caution, I would feel differently.
If there is enough evidence to arrest somebody why have a trial? or why let them out on bail?
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06-29-2011, 06:20 PM
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simple country microbiologist hyperchicken
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: georgia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddog
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Quote:
wei, being charged with a crime is nothing, it doesn't mean a person is guilty. and being arrested and making bail is what happens when you are charged with a crime.
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So if an adult is charged with attempted murder of ,say, the parents whom they live with (and there was enough evidence to arrest them), you think that person should be allowed to return to their parents home while on bail awaiting trial? Really?
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Speaking only in terms of California law, the criminal charges aspect is something different from the domestic violence aspect. A person is excluded from the home by a temporary restraining order, not ipso facto by being charged with a crime. Indeed, there need not necessarily be a criminal charge pending. But a restraining order, in the nature of an injunction, is an equitable remedy, and is administered and issued by a civil court. IOW, application must be made to a court, and evidence must be introduced which would support a restraining order. Restraining orders do not always necessarily include exclusion from the residence (though they commonly do); it would depend on the nature of the conduct at issue. In equitable cases, the court is required to weigh the risks and costs to each party, and the gravity of harm that would result, if the order did not issue. Such temporary orders may be issued on an emergency ex parte basis if the evidence shows that there is some imminent danger. The court must be satisfied that there is, in fact, an imminent danger that requires expedited action to avert serious harm, in order to act ex parte (without the other party present). Otherwise, the court will deny the orders and set hearing at a time when both parties have been noticed and are present. TRO's are not issued in a vacuum -- there MUST be a proper showing to obtain a restraining order.
#2665
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This all seems very reasonable and proper to me.
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06-29-2011, 06:23 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
If you tell me, their is due process, that there was a hearing and they don't just err on the side of caution, I would feel differently.
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Well one can't get bail without a preliminary hearing at least, where evidence is presented. Though it's not a full trial by jury, there is some basis for the arrest put in front of a judge. Cases can be dismissed, bail granted or denied, and/or trial set
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06-29-2011, 06:26 PM
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simple country microbiologist hyperchicken
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: georgia
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Re: Return to Gender 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Quote:
If you tell me, their is due process, that there was a hearing and they don't just err on the side of caution, I would feel differently.
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Well one can't get bail without a preliminary hearing at least, where evidence is presented. Though it's not a full trial, there is some basis for the arrest put in front of a judge
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Thats not true, ls. Bail gets decided within hours of being arrested, there are standard amounts. If you don't make it right away then their is a hearing.
At least in GA.
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