Forums...belonging or not to belonging

[beyelzu]

well,

I am here because I really like liv and vm.

and ronin and farren and coas and bunches and bunches of other people

edited to add seebs name cuz he has been my favorite theist poster at ii for quite awhile.



but when vm and liv announced that they were starting a board I went there. then I didnt have internet for awhile and their board wasnt anymore. and then it was.


I am the great fucking communicator, huh?

Basically, I appreciate the maturity of the admins here. They both can accept my aggressive personality for what it is, and not get offended. Course, it probably helps that we mostly see eye to eye on stuff and being reasonable people when we dont we communicate.


Plus, I love the roman theme, its uber badass.

and the smileys are good shit too.

now, if only farren will make me a fuck you penis avatar I will be very happy.

I'll make you one. It'll be this big, macho penis with "No, Fuck YOU!" tattooed on the foreskin.

farren promised.

what the fuck does a hopeful smiley look like?????


Seriously, I met Ronin in a long, long thread that we derailed at iidb

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...are#post788870

and he patiently argued with me for many posts, and ultimately changed my mind. this is an example of a good exchange on a forum in my opion.



I used to be a libertarian now I just have libertarian leanings.

I want a forum that challenges me and will help me grow as a person and is entertaining. Knowing the people here, this place is/will be all of those things.

[Ronin]

Ahhh, damn...italics and tildes.

Good times, good times.



Now that I've re-read that exchange, beyelzu, I see great gaps where I was talking right around what you were saying...in favor of making some of my own points.

Thanks for taking the time to search out that bit of nostalgia. It is alarmingly refreshing to review one's behavior with the benefit of time.

I've never even met you offline and you seem more a friend of mine than those I have known for many, many years irl.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Ahhh, damn...italics and tildes.

Good times, good times.



Now that I've re-read that exchange, beyelzu, I see great gaps where I was talking right around what you were saying...in favor of making some of my own points.

but dont we all do that at times?

Thanks for taking the time to search out that bit of nostalgia. It is alarmingly refreshing to review one's behavior with the benefit of time.

it's kind of like looking up old pictures of yourself and wondering what you were thinking about your haircut. Luckily since I shave my head I wont have to think about such things in years to come. btw, it was easy to find because I could remember the first few words of my last post. Turns out all the brain cells arent dead yet, skyy makes them grow.

I've never even met you offline and you seem more a friend of mine than those I have known for many, many years irl.

I have found that the thing about some of my irl friends is that I cant talk about some things. For my friends either they are apolitical, have similar views as I do, or get far too pissed off to talk about it and my liberal friends' friends all think I am the antichrist. meeting people who can actually disagree vehemently and yet without rancor was pretty eye opening for me.

I would glomp you ronin if I wasnt such a homophobe.


turns out I amnot such a homophobe after all

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

Plus, I love the roman theme, its uber badass.

Ya could at least use latin instead of german ... asinus malissimus? nates improbissimi? Latin scholars will no doubt be able to produce a better phrase!
Or even annus horribilis (god bless you, your majesty)

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by JoeP

Ya could at least use latin instead of german ... asinus malissimus? nates improbissimi? Latin scholars will no doubt be able to produce a better phrase!
Or even annus horribilis (god bless you, your majesty)

if this is rome, I am the token barbarian, just ask anyone, kind of a cuddly attila, and thus the german is appropriate.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by Gawen

But then again, how many of you have registered to a forum and then felt "Ya know, I really don't feel like I belong here"? Why? What were the reasons for this thought? What attracted you to the forum in the first place and what reason's for then thinking this?

I usually lurk a bit first, but find I need to post after a day or two and if I don't feel that need then that forum ain't for me. So far I have fit right in to most forums I have gone to...except at Sybermoms. I love it there, and want very much to be a part of that community...but not being a parent keeps me from posting there, even though many of the discussions aren't related to parenting at all.

[Chiron]

Originally Posted by JoeP

Ya could at least use latin instead of german ... asinus malissimus? nates improbissimi? Latin scholars will no doubt be able to produce a better phrase!
Or even annus horribilis (god bless you, your majesty)

"Horrible year"...?
You went and put in an extra n there, you barbarian. When you speak, all you say is "Bar bar bar bar"! non Romae es! Fool!

...though I honestly have no idea what sort of idiom the Romans had which could be seen as roughly analogous to "bad ass".
Pfeh.

K

[Corona688]

Originally Posted by Gawen

But then again, how many of you have registered to a forum and then felt "Ya know, I really don't feel like I belong here"? Why? What were the reasons for this thought? What attracted you to the forum in the first place and what reason's for then thinking this?

I got onto the forums scene kind of late... the first forum I joined was the Internet Infidels, back in 2001. The kansas evolution flap finally clued me into the fact that I was an atheist and didn't think this sort of crap should be happening, so I went looking for a big angry argument to join in on.

Instead, I found a community of roughly like-minded people. After getting over my disappointment I tested the waters with a few philosophical topics/questions/posts, and people were informative and polite in response. This was back in iidb's heyday. I got to witness the legendary Eternal and Troll Hunter firsthand.

Fastforward a few years, iidb's not so interesting anymore. Either it's changing or I am, maybye both; moderation's far tighter and everyone puts on a cheerful face, but below the surface it doesn't seem as friendly as it used to. No longer do I look for places to argue in anyway(except for occasional sport), I'm growing more interested in discussion than being right.

I also inhabit arstechnica forums, but it's not the sort of place where you can unwind and talk with friends(unless you pay the subscriptor fee).

Heathen's Hangout seemed off to a good start, but I felt ignored. It was hard-edged, somehow; I came in too late, and penetrating the cliques was difficult. Not to mention the repeated various ugly fracas that I couldn't help but read, I can't unwind in an environment like that.

This place, now... It's a freethinker's forum, but it's not about freethinkers, it's just about... stuff. We even have a computing forum. It's just the right size. I'm not ignored, castigated, or moderated, I feel I have something to contribute once in awhile, and the posters, moderators, and admins are free to act like human beings. I've never warmed up to a board so fast before, but I like it here.

[Sonnet]

I started out, for the most part, at a forum for people, mostly women, in a very specific romantic situation, then became a mod there and a member of a private, password-protected offshoot board. I'm no longer in the same situation, but after 3+ years, it's still home. However, I don't always like talking about that situation, or to the people who are in it now. We talk about other things, too, or I wouldn't stay, but I wanted to find another forum to call home. I ended up leaving the private board after a couple of years, and followed a couple of other expatriates somewhere else. That's where I met viscous and livius, and thank goodness for that, because I soon realized that I strenuously disagree with the administrative practices there (I won't be specific so that I can speak freely about what a dolt the admin was ), and began to post less and less. On top of all that, viscous turned me on to HH - and then lured me here with Pool Jam.

A forum is only as good as its denizens, and it takes a while to find one that feels like home. This place is the most promising I've found. I like it here.

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by Chiron

"Horrible year"...?
You went and put in an extra n there, you barbarian. When you speak, all you say is "Bar bar bar bar"! non Romae es! Fool!

...though I honestly have no idea what sort of idiom the Romans had which could be seen as roughly analogous to "bad ass".
Pfeh.

K

Even the little smilie didn't clue you in? It weren't me wot been and gone and put an extra n innit. It's the Queen's - well - Latin, no less.

[viscousmemories]

All the nice comments about this place are really great. It's hard to say what it might look like a few years from now, but I hope it's much the same. So far I really do enjoy coming around here and it's a truly great feeling to not have any real "responsibility" for people getting along like I kinda felt like I had at the first FF. I still feel like jumping in to mediate when tempers flare a bit (it's just a natural tendency I have) but knowing that our own guidelines prohibit me from doing so (except to voice our own opinions, and even that I try to avoid as much as possible) and that we have taken steps to ensure that each member has as much power to self-censor as possible gives me a genuinely good feeling.

[seebs]

I dunno, I have to say, I do really like the atmosphere here. It's mostly friendly and relaxed, without all the "don't talk about X" rules.

[Goliath]

Long, long ago I used to post on the Palladium message boards (Palladium is an RPG company), but I left after my interest in Rifts--their main RPG product--waned.

For a time, I was on the IIDB. At first, it was great: a place where atheists could let their hair down and empty both clips into any theist brave--or foolish--enough to stick around. However, the IIDB has changed...I guess I've let go my frustration and anger at the IIDB Board of Directors for changing the board's goals to finding common ground with theists, even though the very idea of finding common ground with theists strikes me as nothing short of complete and total batshit insanity.

As to why I came here...at first, I didn't really know. But I've found that I like the atmosphere here, and that I'm sick of the constant battling that I'm used to having to do at other message boards.

[seebs]

Originally Posted by Goliath

However, the IIDB has changed...I guess I've let go my frustration and anger at the IIDB Board of Directors for changing the board's goals to finding common ground with theists, even though the very idea of finding common ground with theists strikes me as nothing short of complete and total batshit insanity.

As to why I came here...at first, I didn't really know. But I've found that I like the atmosphere here, and that I'm sick of the constant battling that I'm used to having to do at other message boards.

Y'know, one of the advantages of common ground (wacky as it may seem) is freedom from constant battling.

Seriously, I really like not feeling like I'm in a fight all the time. I enjoy being able to relax and talk to people about stuff we don't have to fight about; if that means I'm "finding common ground", well, so be it.

[pescifish]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I still feel like jumping in to mediate when tempers flare a bit

I haven't seen many tempers flaring on this board except a couple of scuffles in the first week.

I'm not sure that's a good thing or not, but it certainly makes things seem more friendly. I kinda miss acting on my urges to call some folks on on their shit, but it just doesn't seem worth it anymore: we have all been around all those blocks already, no one is gonna change, really, are they?

I'm not suited to bulletin boards and really don't feel like I belong on any of them that have more than 10 users. But that's no different for me online as it is IRL: I just do not like groups of people. I really love individuals but there is something about how groups evolve over time, locking personalities and the social dynamics down, that causes me to want to slink off, unnoticed, into the darkness.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by pescifish

I haven't seen many tempers flaring on this board except a couple of scuffles in the first week.

I guess that was a poor choice of words. It's not that I think there have been many significant blow-ups or anything, but people make comments from time to time that I'm fairly certain someone will find deeply offensive, and I get the urge to step in and try to neutralize it somehow. Not because I'm an admin but because it just personally makes me really uncomfortable when people fight.

I'm not sure that's a good thing or not, but it certainly makes things seem more friendly. I kinda miss acting on my urges to call some folks on on their shit, but it just doesn't seem worth it anymore: we have all been around all those blocks already, no one is gonna change, really, are they?

I'm not so sure friendly is sustainable or desirable, really. I guess I don't see how it's possible to learn and grow without having your beliefs and assumptions challenged, and IMHO most people hold on to what they believe (or disbelieve, as the case may be) pretty fiercely. So I imagine some will change with or without a fight, and some just won't no matter what. I change all the time, but usually not without a fight. Still I'm really a dramatically different person than I was when I joined IIDB.

I'm not suited to bulletin boards and really don't feel like I belong on any of them that have more than 10 users. But that's no different for me online as it is IRL: I just do not like groups of people. I really love individuals but there is something about how groups evolve over time, locking personalities and the social dynamics down, that causes me to want to slink off, unnoticed, into the darkness.

I know what you mean and I can relate, definitely. Still I'm holding on to hope that such social dynamics are repressible. Not that I have the slightest idea how to do it, but I keep wanting to believe it can be done. Honestly I don't know if anyone is really suited to bulletin boards. It's a pretty new and weird social universe. I've definitely enjoyed the contributions you've made to the various communities we've been a part of, if that helps you determine in any small way whether or not you belong.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by seebs

Y'know, one of the advantages of common ground (wacky as it may seem) is freedom from constant battling.

Wrong, as I have been able to converse with theists with whom I (naturally) have almost nothing in common, and with whom the conversations did not turn even slightly confrontational.

Seriously, I really like not feeling like I'm in a fight all the time. I enjoy being able to relax and talk to people about stuff we don't have to fight about; if that means I'm "finding common ground", well, so be it.

What does not battling have to do with finding common ground?

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Goliath

What does not battling have to do with finding common ground?

I think the phrase "finding common ground" is generally interpreted as "focusing on those aspects of our humanity we have in common", and I think naturally when you're focused on commonalities battling is less likely to occur. You keep saying that you naturally have almost nothing in common with theists, but as I think I've said before that seems to be an irrational statement because the sole characteristic all theists have in common is a belief in God, and I don't see how having a single difference with someone can be described as "almost nothing in common".

[Goliath]

I think the phrase "finding common ground" is generally interpreted as "focusing on those aspects of our humanity we have in common",

I think I can more or less agree with this definition.

and I think naturally when you're focused on commonalities battling is less likely to occur.

Okay, finding common ground usually leads to a lack of battling....but why must a lack of battling tend to imply a finding of common ground? I guess that's what I'm confused about.

You keep saying that you naturally have almost nothing in common with theists, but as I think I've said before that seems to be an irrational statement because the sole characteristic all theists have in common is a belief in God, and I don't see how having a single difference with someone can be described as "almost nothing in common".

Actually, I've said that I have very little in common with them. For every possible conversational topic X, the theist believes that their god created X, whereas I do not. So, for everything that you can find in common between myself and a theist, I can find at least one thing that the theist and I do not have in common.

I'll certainly admit that I do have some things in common with the theists that I do associate with...my advisor, for instance, is a xian, and we have an interest in mathematics in common. And that's fine. However, there's a difference between happening to bump into a theist with which I have something in common and taking a random theist and probing to find every possible thing that he/she and I have in common.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Goliath

Okay, finding common ground usually leads to a lack of battling....but why must a lack of battling tend to imply a finding of common ground? I guess that's what I'm confused about.

Well I can't speak for seebs of course but I thought he was just saying he enjoys having a place where he can relax and discuss non-contentious subjects, and whether it's technically accurate to call it "finding common ground" isn't really important to him.

Originally Posted by Goliath

Actually, I've said that I have very little in common with them. For every possible conversational topic X, the theist believes that their god created X, whereas I do not. So, for everything that you can find in common between myself and a theist, I can find at least one thing that the theist and I do not have in common.

Perhaps you've said "very little" in the past, but since you have accused me before of trying to put words in your mouth I was very careful to use your exact words in this case, which were "almost nothing in common". And like I said before it doesn't make any more sense to me to say that for every thing you can find in common with a theist there is something you don't have in common because he/she believes God created it than it does to say that I have nothing in common with German's because for every thing we might have in common they use a German word to describe it.

I'll certainly admit that I do have some things in common with the theists that I do associate with...my advisor, for instance, is a xian, and we have an interest in mathematics in common. And that's fine. However, there's a difference between happening to bump into a theist with which I have something in common and taking a random theist and probing to find every possible thing that he/she and I have in common.

Well I never suggested talking to random theists and probing for every possible commonality so I'm not sure what you're referring to. I was just saying it still doesn't make sense to me how you can conclude that you have almost nothing in common with a few billion members of the same species based on a single criterion.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Well I can't speak for seebs of course but I thought he was just saying he enjoys having a place where he can relax and discuss non-contentious subjects, and whether it's technically accurate to call it "finding common ground" isn't really important to him.

Then why would he have replied to my first post in this thread?

Perhaps you've said "very little" in the past, but since you have accused me before of trying to put words in your mouth I was very careful to use your exact words in this case, which were "almost nothing in common".

Okay, very well: almost nothing.

And like I said before it doesn't make any more sense to me to say that for every thing you can find in common with a theist there is something you don't have in common because he/she believes God created it than it does to say that I have nothing in common with German's because for every thing we might have in common they use a German word to describe it.

It should make far more sense because there's a vast difference between a language and a claim that a god created everything. If you cannot tell the difference between the two, then I'm not sure what to say...

Well I never suggested talking to random theists and probing for every possible commonality so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Well, the (new) topic is finding common ground with theists, and how batshit insane it seems to me.

I was just saying it still doesn't make sense to me how you can conclude that you have almost nothing in common with a few billion members of the same species based on a single criterion.

Simple: because that single criterion creates a ton of differences.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Goliath

Then why would he have replied to my first post in this thread?

Why wouldn't he?

Originally Posted by Goliath

It should make far more sense because there's a vast difference between a language and a claim that a god created everything. If you cannot tell the difference between the two, then I'm not sure what to say...

As an aside: Do you really think I can't tell the difference between a God who created everything and a language, or is it fair to assume you're being sarcastic? I think the latter, but my experience tells me that if I respond sarcastically back you'll get pissed off and accuse me of putting words in your mouth and not listening to you etc. So I have no choice, if I want to continue to have a civilized debate with you, but to just ignore the insult and respond as though you're sincere. I'll have you know that turning the other cheek isn't easy for me though, being an atheist and all.

Of course I was not suggesting that a language and a belief in God are the same thing. However I could just as easily say "I have almost nothing in common with German speaking people. As proof, note that for every one thing we have in common I can find one thing we don't have in common: They use a German word to describe it. Example: I love GameBoy. Fritz loves GameBoy too. So we have that in common. But, I call it GameBoy and he calls it SpielJunge. Therefore we have something not in common."

Of course that's a factual statement, but is it reasonable?

Originally Posted by Goliath

Well, the (new) topic is finding common ground with theists, and how batshit insane it seems to me.

I'm talking about trying to find common ground with people (including theists) you interact with in on online forum. Not "talking to random theists and probing for every possible commonality".

Originally Posted by Goliath

Simple: because that single criterion creates a ton of differences.

Just as there are a ton of differences between me and Fritz that spring from the fact that he speaks German and I speak English. That doesn't make it any less a single criterion, though. And I think that's an unreasonable standard by which to conclude that you have almost nothing in common with a few billion other members of the same species, especially considering the fact that your being human means you have a million things in common by default.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Why wouldn't he?

I don't know.

As an aside: Do you really think I can't tell the difference between a God who created everything and a language, or is it fair to assume you're being sarcastic? I think the latter,

No, it was the former. If I were being sarcastic, I would've made it more obvious, and since we're having a relatively serious discussion, it seemed logical that you wouldn't have made such a poor analogy if you did know the difference. I guess I was wrong about that.

So I have no choice, if I want to continue to have a civilized debate with you, but to just ignore the insult

Non-sequitor, as it wasn't an insult.

However I could just as easily say "I have almost nothing in common with German speaking people. As proof, note that for every one thing we have in common I can find one thing we don't have in common: They use a German word to describe it. Example: I love GameBoy. Fritz loves GameBoy too. So we have that in common. But, I call it GameBoy and he calls it SpielJunge. Therefore we have something not in common."

Of course that's a factual statement, but is it reasonable?

No. But then again, I'm differentiating a concept from the name of said concept. Why do you seem to be unable to do this?

I'm talking about trying to find common ground with people (including theists) you interact with in on online forum. Not "talking to random theists and probing for every possible commonality".

But practically any theist on the planet (with access to a computer that's hooked up to the internet) can access this forum. So I could end up conversing with practically any theist on the planet via this forum....and some people would suggest that I try to find common ground with them (if this were the IIDB, the BoD would be mandating it). I just don't know why that's a good idea.

And I think that's an unreasonable standard by which to conclude that you have almost nothing in common with a few billion other members of the same species, especially considering the fact that your being human means you have a million things in common by default.

Again, for every million things that you can find in common by default, I can find at least one million things not in common.

I'll grant you that I may have more in common with many theists than I realize.

But, then again, so what? I guess the difference between myself and a bunch of people on this board is that the previous paragraph would make other people want to jump up and find as many commonalities with themselves and theists as possible, whereas that's an ambition that I just don't share.

Before we derail this thread further: is there really a point in arguing over ambitions?

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Goliath

No, it was the former. If I were being sarcastic, I would've made it more obvious, and since we're having a relatively serious discussion, it seemed logical that you wouldn't have made such a poor analogy if you did know the difference. I guess I was wrong about that.

Ah, okay. Well if you think I'm too stupid to know the difference between an omnipotent God and a human language, I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to explain myself.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Ah, okay. Well if you think I'm too stupid to know the difference between an omnipotent God and a human language, I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to explain myself.

In case you didn't notice, I did say that I was wrong about that.

I am glad that this thread tangent is over, though...I took some time to think about whether or not a response to the OP in this thread would be worth it...

Looks like I was wrong about that, too.