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Old 11-22-2006, 09:33 PM
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Default Global warming

I see that a certain member of the :ff: Fruitcake Fringe has posted a couple of news items relating to the subject. If you're not a member of the :ff:FF - which includes watser, sauron and jackdog - I'm interested to hear why you believe either of the following:

1. The mean temperature of the biosphere is increasing.

2. Said increase is caused by human activity.

Spare me your assurances that most scientific authorities claim to believe it. I don't care about that. I want to know what you know about the subject, and why these clamis make sense to you.
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Old 11-22-2006, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: Global warming

I suspect I might be considered part of your fruitcake fringe, but I'll take a stab at it.

The best overview of the situation I've seen is Brian M. Fagan's treatment in The Long Summer: How Climate Changed Civilization and The Little Ice Age: How Climate Made History, 1300-1850. He points out that in terms of geological time, our planet has been through repeated cycles of warming and cooling. He typifies the period since the recession of the last ice sheets from much of the northern hemisphere as a unusually protracted warming trend, admidst which there have been occasional cold spells like that of "The Little Ice Age" of Europe, as the "Long Summer". Thus, the human species, in his view, have been very lucky to have attained some intraspeciel advances at a time when the environment in which they were located was fairly accomodating.

However, that swing could reach levels which might be intolerable for lots of life forms on the planet, including humans. The problem is that human activity, particularly the production of greenhouse gases and reduction of the natural thermostatic materials (deforestation) which is exacerbating the natural cycle and threatens to bring about a punctuated heat event. Given population considerations and resource extraction rates, I don't have very optimistic outlook for the masses of humanity now inhabiting the planet. I expect that 'load' to be considerably reduced in the foreseeable future.
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Old 11-22-2006, 10:46 PM
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Default Re: Global warming

yguy, I suggest you wait ten years and see if you change your mind.

If that does happen, then you'll realise that the people you are criticizing now were just faster than you to recognise the situation.

If you don't change your mind after ten years, then we can continue the debate.
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Old 11-22-2006, 11:14 PM
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Default Re: Global warming

Quote:
Originally Posted by yguy
I want to know what you know about the subject, and why these clamis make sense to you.
What I know about the subject?

I haven't done any research directly. All I know about the topic is what other people have found, and published in journals.

The claims make sense to me based on my knowledge of meteorology and atmospheric physics (again, something I have not researched directly, and have had to rely on the published work of others), and they match (and predict) our growing observations (or at least, so it is claimed in yet more published work of others). For the same reasons, one of those claims is on significantly stronger footing than the other.

Since you do not trust scientific research, you will not believe these things.
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Old 11-22-2006, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: Global warming

I believe in global warming because global warming raped my mother!

What kind of insensitive prick would you be to claim that my mother's suffering was not real?!?
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Old 11-23-2006, 12:03 AM
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Default Re: Global warming

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfry n. glad
The problem is that human activity, particularly the production of greenhouse gases and reduction of the natural thermostatic materials (deforestation) which is exacerbating the natural cycle and threatens to bring about a punctuated heat event.
It appears to me that we have is a thermodynamic system consisting of two heat sources (Earth and the sun) and an irradiated object we call the biosphere. Every argument I've ever seen in favor of GW focuses on what amounts to the insulative properties of the atmosphere, evidently under the assumption that the output of the heat sources varies only negligibly. What is the basis for such an assumption?
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Old 11-23-2006, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: Global warming

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceptimus
yguy, I suggest you wait ten years and see if you change your mind.

If that does happen, then you'll realise that the people you are criticizing now
Whom have I criticized for believing in GW?

Quote:
were just faster than you to recognise the situation.

If you don't change your mind after ten years, then we can continue the debate.
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Old 11-23-2006, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: Global warming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragar
The claims make sense to me based on my knowledge of meteorology
IYO, how many years of accurate data do we have as regards global temperatures?

Quote:
and atmospheric physics (again, something I have not researched directly, and have had to rely on the published work of others), and they match (and predict) our growing observations (or at least, so it is claimed in yet more published work of others).
What predictions do you refer to? Cite if possible, please.

Quote:
For the same reasons, one of those claims is on significantly stronger footing than the other.
That would be claim #1, I take it?
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Old 11-23-2006, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: Global warming

I’m a biologist, and one of the things that biologists have been noting over that past several decades is the shifts in species’ ranges. Specifically, and particularly in the Northern Hemisphere (where most of the Earth’s land is – more on that later), the ranges of cold-adapted species have been shrinking while the ranges of species that tolerate warmer temperatures have been expanding northward and up into mountainous areas where they didn’t live just a century or so ago. I have participated in research regarding the shrinking ranges of cold-tolerant species, by the way.


There’s no question that the amounts of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere are increasing. Nor is there any serious question that the Earth’s mean temperature is increasing. Unless the laws of physics were repealed when I wasn’t looking, increasing levels of methane and CO2 in the atmosphere must lead to a change in the Earth’s heat balance and a subsequent increase in the Earth’s mean temperature – unless the amount of sunlight reaching the Earth decreases to compensate. Besides, ice cores going back some 400,000 years demonstrate a close correlation between atmospheric CO2 levels and mean global temperature.

There is, to be sure, often an apparent lag between a change in CO2 levels and a change in mean global temperature. This is exactly what’s expected. The Earth is an enormous system and the oceans are a tremendous heat sink. It takes time for a change in atmospheric CO2 levels to change the heat balance of an entire planet. It’s also certainly true that other factors (Milankovitch Cycles, for instance) influence the planet’s climate, so it’s possible that rising CO2 levels are sometimes a response to rising global temperatures, rather than a direct cause.

Still, unless the physics of heat retention have changed, absent other changes (like, for example, a decrease in heat delivered to the Earth by the Sun), rising CO2 levels must cause the Earth’s temperature balance to shift upward.


The relevant questions are: 1.) “How much is the Earth’s mean temperature going to increase?” 2.) “How much of this is due to human activities?” and 3.) “What, if anything, can we/should we do about it?”



Here are some common claims of “Global Warming Skeptics,” with responses.

“There is no actual evidence of Global Warming. It’s just something that models predict.”
Untrue. That the planet’s mean temperature appears to be rising was noted well before there were models available that could make even the crudest approximations of the phenomenon.

The NASA Goddard Institute of Space Studies Surface Temperature Analysis (GISTEMP) is a measure of changing global surface temperatures using data from 1880 to the present. These data are not interpolations, but direct measurements from weather stations scattered over the globe. The graph below is a summary of the data, showing how mean global temperatures have risen over the past 125 years.




This next graph shows the data broken down by region. Note that mean temperature change is highest at the highest latitudes (near the pole).





Satellite measurements also show the Earth’s average temperature is rising.





Glaciers all over the world are shrinking at a drastic rate. While it’s true that some glaciers are still growing, that’s not surprising. All that’s necessary for a glacier to grow is that more snow falls in the winter than melts in the summer. So it’s unsurprising that some glaciers are still growing. But over the past century, the vast majority of the world’s glaciers that have been measured have been shrinking. This is a physical impossibility unless the climate has been warming.

Compare these two pictures, taken in Glacier Bay National Park. The first was taken on August 13, 1941. The second was taken August 31, 2004. The Muir Glacier (which was 2,000 feet thick in 1941) has retreated completely out of view.






The amount of sea ice in the Arctic Ocean has been declining for as long as the means have been available to measure its thickness and extent. The graph below shows the decline in sea ice from 1975 to the present. (Data from The National Snow and Ice Data Center, Boulder, Colorado.)





Since 1992, satellites have been measuring changes in mean sea level. As the oceans warm, they experience thermal expansion. This graph shows changing sea levels around the world over the past decade or so. (Data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.)




One particularly worrying trend is the melting of permafrost at Northern Latitudes. (This is where temperatures appear to be rising fastest.) Permafrost that has been in place for millennia is melting in Siberia, Alaska, and Northern Canada. As it does, it releases methane into the atmosphere, which is itself a greenhouse gas. This is a cause for considerable concern among atmospheric scientists.



There are several other lines of evidence showing that the Earth’s mean temperature is increasing (such as changes in nesting patterns of Northern-Hemisphere bird species, which nest several weeks earlier now than they did 100 years ago), but that’s sufficient for now.



“Global Warming is a hoax by left-wing environmental wackos.”
Here are a few “left-wing environmental groups” that have concluded that Global Warming is a real phenomenon, and that human activities are at least partially to blame.

The American Geophysical Union
The American Institute of Physics
The American Meteorological Society (AMS)
The Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society (CMOS)
The Environmental Protection Agency
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)
NASA's Goddard Institute of Space Studies (GISS)
The National Academy of Sciences (NAS)
The National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR)
The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)
The Royal Society of the UK (RS)
State of the Canadian Cryosphere (SOCC)





“The apparent rise in mean temperature is simply a result of the Urban ‘Heat Island’ Effect.”
Incorrect. Monitoring stations are often located well away from urban centers (atop remote mountain peaks, for instance), and the “heat island effect” is well understood and accounted for. In any event, independent measuring systems (e.g. satellites) confirm that the Earth’s mean temperature is rising.


“The current more or less universal agreement among atmospheric scientists that the Earth is warming is irrelevant, because in the 1970s, they were predicting ‘Global Cooling’.”
Incorrect. This is a myth that some GW “skeptics” continue to repeat even after its falsehood has been pointed out. There were some articles in popular magazines which predicted “Global Cooling,” but this was mostly alarmist bunk by the media that was never supported by (and indeed, was debunked by) the general scientific community.


“Water vapor is the strongest Greenhouse Gas, and rising CO2 levels have nothing to do with mean global temperature.”
Incorrect. The reason climate scientists don’t waste time discussing changes in atmospheric water vapor levels (which is indeed a Greenhouse Gas) is because changing H2O vapor levels are not a forcing agent like changing CO2 levels are. The amount of H2O vapor in the air is a function of temperature change, not a cause.

If you could magically remove all the CO2 from the atmosphere, the planet’s temperature would begin to fall. As it fell, water vapor would condense and rain out of the atmosphere. As the planet continued to cool, water vapor that hadn’t rained out would freeze out as snow, until there was little or no water vapor left. At that point, the planet’s average temperature would be well below freezing.

That’s why the driest place on Earth isn’t the Sahara or the Gobi Desert, it’s Antarctica. Despite that fact that it is a Greenhouse Gas, the concentration of water vapor in the atmosphere is a very sensitive result of temperature, not a cause of it.




“Rising mean global temperatures are due to natural cycles. Human activities have nothing to do with it.”
It’s certainly true that the planet’s mean temperature has fluctuated over time, and it will continue to do so in the future, whether humans are around or not. Much of the current rise in mean global temperature may indeed be completely independent of human activities.

But GW “skeptics” who insist that human activities have nothing to do with the planet’s mean temperature must explain the magical process by which you can increase the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere by 30% and not cause the Earth’s heat balance to shift upward.


“Volcanoes emit more CO2 than do human activities, so anthropogenic CO2 is irrelevant to Global Warming.”
I really dislike this one, because it’s an outright lie. Human activities contribute an estimated 150 times as much CO2 to the atmosphere as do volcanoes. This is readily apparent to anyone who bothers to look at the atmospheric CO2 data. If volcanoes were a significant source of atmospheric CO2, you’d see a sudden “spike” in atmospheric CO2 every time there was a major volcanic eruption. This doesn’t happen.



“Satellite observations show that the Earth is cooling, not warming.”
Another outright lie. It’s true that one analysis of satellite data showed tropospheric cooling, but those measurements were shown to be in error and have since been corrected. Other satellites have consistently shown the Earth to be warming.


“Natural emissions of CO2 into the atmosphere dwarf human emissions. So Global Warming isn’t anthropogenic, even if it’s caused by CO2 emissions.”
It’s true that natural emissions of CO2 (decay of plant matter, respiration by animals, etc.) are something like 30 times that of anthropogenic CO2 emissions. But, respiration (which adds CO2 to the atmosphere) and photosynthesis (which removes CO2 from the atmosphere) are tightly linked and essentially balanced. For the past 10,000 years or so, for every ton of CO2 put into the air by “natural” processes, a ton was removed by photosynthesis and absorption by carbonates. So, atmospheric CO2 levels remained more or less in balance.

The difference nowadays is that human activities add something like 6 billion tons of CO2 to the atmosphere each year, but we don’t remove the CO2 that we contribute, unlike natural processes. Fortunately, about half of that 6 billion tons is absorbed by the oceans. But that still means that the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere increases by about 3 billion tons per year.



“Some places are cooling, not warming. This shows that Global Warming is a myth.”
While it’s true that some parts of the globe are cooling right now instead of warming, this in no way refutes the conclusion that the Earth’s average temperature is increasing. Indeed, increasing average temperatures are expected to cause changes in atmospheric and oceanic currents that distribute heat, leading some places to become cooler (at least in the short term) even as the planet’s average temperature increases.

Saying that because some parts of the globe are getting cooler, the planet as a whole cannot be warming is like claiming that because it’s sometimes true that a day in February is warmer than a day in June, June is not a warmer month on average than is February. [This assumes you live in the Northern Hemisphere.]




Well, there’s lots more to this subject, but this is all I have time for right now.

Cheers,

Michael
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Last edited by The Lone Ranger; 11-23-2006 at 01:40 AM.
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Old 11-23-2006, 01:46 AM
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Default Re: Global warming

Charts and graphs FTW.
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Old 11-23-2006, 02:01 AM
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Default Re: Global warming

Quote:
Originally Posted by yguy
Quote:
Originally Posted by godfry n. glad
The problem is that human activity, particularly the production of greenhouse gases and reduction of the natural thermostatic materials (deforestation) which is exacerbating the natural cycle and threatens to bring about a punctuated heat event.
It appears to me that we have is a thermodynamic system consisting of two heat sources (Earth and the sun) and an irradiated object we call the biosphere. Every argument I've ever seen in favor of GW focuses on what amounts to the insulative properties of the atmosphere, evidently under the assumption that the output of the heat sources varies only negligibly. What is the basis for such an assumption?
Wrong, dipshit. As the gas composition of the atmosphere changes, it's insulative properties change as well. Under some conditions, greater amounts of the energy from the sun are trapped within the atmosphere, causing in increase in the average mean temperature of the planet. Under other conditions, larger amounts of that self-same energy is reflected back into space.
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Old 11-23-2006, 10:35 AM
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Default Re: Global warming

Quote:
IYO, how many years of accurate data do we have as regards global temperatures?
Michael's post seems to have answered this.

Quote:
What predictions do you refer to? Cite if possible, please.
Again, see TLR's excellent post.

Quote:
That would be claim #1, I take it?
Yes. Again, as Michael said, the evidence that the Earth's mean temperature is increasing is overwhelming. The evidence that humans are responsible is somewhat weaker, but like Michael I think it would be idiotic to imagine we can add 30% extra carbon dioxide to the atmosphere and not cause the temperature to rise.
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Old 11-23-2006, 10:37 PM
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Default Re: Global warming

The questions in the OP are incredibly broad, one could write a book (or make a movie) in answer to them. Kudos to TLR for taking the time to write a long and informative post. Personally I'm choosing to reply to a very general question with a very general answer - I consider statements 1 & 2 to be true because a wide range of observations and theory support them. If you want more spcific answers, ask a more specific question :).

Quote:
Originally Posted by yguy
It appears to me that we have is a thermodynamic system consisting of two heat sources (Earth and the sun) and an irradiated object we call the biosphere. Every argument I've ever seen in favor of GW focuses on what amounts to the insulative properties of the atmosphere, evidently under the assumption that the output of the heat sources varies only negligibly. What is the basis for such an assumption?
No assumptions made. The output of the sun is directly measurable. The radiation of heat from the surface of the earth is a function of the temperature. Both these factors are taken into account by climate scientists.
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Global warming

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger
The NASA Goddard Institute of Space Studies Surface Temperature Analysis (GISTEMP) is a measure of changing global surface temperatures using data from 1880 to the present. These data are not interpolations, but direct measurements from weather stations scattered over the globe. The graph below is a summary of the data, showing how mean global temperatures have risen over the past 125 years.
What was the measurement error of the instrumentation at these weather stations?
Quote:
Note that mean temperature change is highest at the highest latitudes (near the pole).
Why is that significant?
Quote:
Satellite measurements also show the Earth’s average temperature is rising.
What reason is there to believe that we have a sufficient number of physical data collection points so as to make reasonably accurate claims with respect to the actual mean temperature of the biosphere?
Quote:
[O]ver the past century, the vast majority of the world’s glaciers that have been measured have been shrinking.
How many are there, and how many have been measured?
Quote:
The amount of sea ice in the Arctic Ocean has been declining for as long as the means have been available to measure its thickness and extent.
Same for the Antarctic?
Quote:
Since 1992, satellites have been measuring changes in mean sea level.
Assuming this is done by some form of radar, what wavelength is used? And however it's done, what's the measurement error?
Quote:
But GW “skeptics” who insist that human activities have nothing to do with the planet’s mean temperature must explain the magical process by which you can increase the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere by 30% and not cause the Earth’s heat balance to shift upward.
An obvious possibility is that warmer temperatures mean more water vapor, which means more sun-blocking clouds. That aside, it would seem to me that the simplest way to factor out external heat sources would be to track the spread between daytime highs and nightime lows, which if I understand correctly should be decreasing if atmospheric changes are significantly affecting the global climate.
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yguy
What was the measurement error of the instrumentation at these weather stations?
You may not be familiar with what error bars are - but you see on the first graph, there are some blue vertical lines, with small horizontal lines at each end? Those are error bars. The height indicates the experimental uncertainty in the measurement.
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godfry n. glad
Quote:
Originally Posted by yguy
Quote:
Originally Posted by godfry n. glad
The problem is that human activity, particularly the production of greenhouse gases and reduction of the natural thermostatic materials (deforestation) which is exacerbating the natural cycle and threatens to bring about a punctuated heat event.
It appears to me that we have is a thermodynamic system consisting of two heat sources (Earth and the sun) and an irradiated object we call the biosphere. Every argument I've ever seen in favor of GW focuses on what amounts to the insulative properties of the atmosphere, evidently under the assumption that the output of the heat sources varies only negligibly. What is the basis for such an assumption?
Wrong, dipshit. As the gas composition of the atmosphere changes, it's insulative properties change as well. Under some conditions, greater amounts of the energy from the sun are trapped within the atmosphere, causing in increase in the average mean temperature of the planet. Under other conditions, larger amounts of that self-same energy is reflected back into space.
Considering the fact that you have not contradicted me in the least, I have to wonder if you understood a word I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fragment
No assumptions made. The output of the sun is directly measurable.
Cool. Let's see the data.
Quote:
The radiation of heat from the surface of the earth is a function of the temperature.
The temperature of what?
Quote:
Both these factors are taken into account by climate scientists.
What we have here is a failure to commicate. There are two independent heat sources involved. You say solar output is factored in, but you say nothing of the output from the earth itself. If you believe it is constant, let's hear why. If not, how is it being accounted for?
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yguy
There are two independent heat sources involved.
I'm sorry? Where is the second independant heat source?
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:47 PM
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You have got to be the laziest bastard I have ever seen on any forum or anywhere on the internets for that matter. You have never, ever come up with any data to support any of your ludicrous positions, yet here you are as usual demanding more data (which as usual you will dismiss as soon as you get it). I really don't see why anyone still bothers to pretend that a discussion on any subject is possible with you.
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: Global warming

You know, that is quote generator worthy, Watser?.

It's the ideal post. Succinct, accurate, and most of all, darn funny.
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quiet bear
You know, that is quote generator worthy, Watser?.

It's the ideal post. Succinct, accurate, and most of all, darn funny.
I agree. Done. :thumbup:
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragar
Quote:
Originally Posted by yguy
There are two independent heat sources involved.
I'm sorry? Where is the second independant heat source?
Does the sun cause volcanic activity? ;)
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:14 PM
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Does volcanic activity contribute more than even a hundredth of a watt per square metre of power?

If not, I think we can ignore something that contributes less than 0.001% of the Sun's power contribution to the Earth. Don't you?
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragar
Does volcanic activity contribute more than even a hundredth of a watt per square metre of power?

If not, I think we can ignore something that contributes less than 0.001% of the Sun's power contribution to the Earth. Don't you?
What I was getting at was not volcanic activity as a heat source, but the cause of such activity, namely heat under the Earth's crust - which clearly has nowhere to go but up, wouldn't you agree?
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yguy
What I was getting at was not volcanic activity as a heat source, but the cause of such activity, namely heat under the Earth's crust - which clearly has nowhere to go but up, wouldn't you agree?
And I was getting at the fact it's insignificant. Wouldn't you agree 0.005% of the Sun's contribution is insignificant?
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:45 PM
yguy yguy is offline
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Default Re: Global warming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragar
Quote:
Originally Posted by yguy
What I was getting at was not volcanic activity as a heat source, but the cause of such activity, namely heat under the Earth's crust - which clearly has nowhere to go but up, wouldn't you agree?
And I was getting at the fact it's insignificant. Wouldn't you agree 0.005% of the Sun's contribution is insignificant?
Where do you get that number?

I have to wonder if you have the foggiest idea of what I'm talking about. Are you really of the opinion that, were the temperature of the Earth's inner core to drop from ~5000 degrees C down to room temperature, the temperature of the biosphere would drop only .005%, all else being equal?
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