Why is marijuana illegal?

[Dingfod]

IMESHO, had pot been legal I might not have quit smoking pot until an employer required it of me. As it was, I was aware of "the times, they are a changing" and not for the better in that regard. The criminal penalties for simple possession were increasing, etc. It just wasn't worth the risk to me any more.

How can anything where the vast majority of the users of the product do not go on to use harder drugs be called a gateway drug?

[Ari]

There needs to be a very important distinction made between use and abuse. The modern prohibitionist has tried to blur that distinction and make all use the same as abuse. I seriously doubt anyone who has a glass of wine at dinner or a beer after work would consider it abuse but that's exactly what the anti-drug programs are trying to do. Very little to no distiction is made in most propaganda between use and abuse.

So the real questions that needs to be asked are, "will proper legalization* increase abuse and other dangers to society? & "Does making it illegal decrease abuse and dangers to society?

*I say proper legalization as the decriminalization that we see in places like california does very little to answer many of the issues.

Complicated questions. In the US we had a nice experiment with the prohibition of alcohol. Most studies show little to no decrease in alcohol abuse directly related to prohibition (according to a Harvard paper figures related to abuse were actually on the decline before prohibition and began to rise during it). Prohibition caused a number of side dangers, from people creating bad booze (on accident or on purpose to increase profits) because legal safe booze was hard to come by to gangs funding their illegal activities with bootleg liquor money.

We see a parallel between prohibition and the modern war on drugs. Not only is it an utter failure but it can create problems. Many gangs are funded by drug sales, including pot. The government even made this apparent with its "drugs fund terrorism" campaign. Oddly absent from the campaign was "alcohol funds terrorism" since it doesn't. Overall there is no reason pot should be illegal and alcohol should be legal beyond alcohol proved to be too big a fish to fry. The government has taken a forced abstinence and closed eye approach instead of providing an effective solution and proper education.
On a historical note many of the first laws against pot were born out of racism against mexicans and poor science.

Banning a substance, locking people up and looking the other way isn't the way to solve problems but it does put money into the pockets of crooks (both gang members and politicians). Education, responsibility and safe products are the key.



To answer Leg's questions (all of which are false dichotomies).

1) Do you like to smoke pot Y or N
I've smoked pot but am not a pot smoker.

2) Do you have a personal interest for wanting it legalized? Y N
Personal as in I want to be a legal stoner, Nope. Personal as in it would be nice to have another legal drug around for occasional use, sure. Personal as in I would really like the government to stop wasting money on a lost cause and actually start to tackle the real problems, Yes.

3) Do you think teens that smoke pot are as successful in school & work as teens who do not? Y N
Yes and No. Teens that smoke pot can be just as successful in school as those that don't.
Teens that abuse pot on the other hand can easily fail in school.

4) Do you think it makes no difference to younger children whether if their parents do dope. They receive adequate care & parenting anyway? Y N
Remember Use vs Abuse.
I think parents who do dope give children equal care as parents who "do" wine or beer at dinner. Parents who abuse dope probably don't give their children adequate care, just like parents who abuse alcohol or prescription drugs.

5) If pot is legalized - more people will do it. Y N
Yes and No.
This question is quite complicated. We would need to weigh numbers between those who do it because it's illegal and taboo compared to those that don't do it because it's illegal and would if it became legal.

This question does seem to be leaning towards the view that more use is bad. I don't see that it is.
For example, just recently a kid committed suicide after having a bad trip taking a legal hallucinogenic drug, this drug is sometimes portrayed as a "marijuana substitute" but is definitely not. Many kids die or suffer permanent brain damage by pursuing dangerous but legal highs such as huffing or oxygen depravation "games" or taking high doses of store bought medication. In these cases easier access to safer drugs like pot (as well as education) could save lives.

6) Hard drug users worked their way up from pot? Y N
Many people work their way down from the legal drug alcohol to pot then back up to other hard drugs (yes alcohol should be considered a "harder" drug than pot, but since it's legal it often gets left off the evil drug lists).
Pot does create a small gateway effect being illegal as searching for pot will more likely put someone in contact with a dealer that sells other harder drugs than say going to the local store.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Ari

For example, just recently a kid committed suicide after having a bad trip taking a legal hallucinogenic drug[...]

There's a legal hallucinogenic drug?

[Stephen Maturin]

Yep. It's called Salvia, IIRC. It's a plant that acts as a hallucinogen when the leaves are dried and smoked.

[viscousmemories]

Huh. Cool beans.

[Legs]

Hi Ari, I enjoyed your well reasoned post.

You can get around false dichotomies by expanding on your answers, which you did. A no brainer.

Nothing about this topic is cut and dried/black and white and as I have said several times only time will tell.

One other point I wanted to make earlier but forgot was simply that many teens smoke pot because it is illegal and risky, that's the attraction. To prove something to someone.

When/if this drug is legal I suspect another drug will have to take it's place to keep the cool factor alive.

[Ari]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

There's a legal hallucinogenic drug?

In that case it was Salvia divinorum which is legal in most places and sometimes sold in head-shops. It's a powerful and intense hallucinogen. There are others such as DXM, Datura stramonium, nutmeg, even some antihistamines.
Most produce some pretty serious hallucinations and often the threshold between active dose and dangerous dose is very small. However many teens looking for a high (that might settle for pot) take these drugs because they can be easier to get than pot. Sometimes they are even lulled into a false sense of security under the impression that legal means safe.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Legs

When/if this drug is legal I suspect another drug will have to take it's place to keep the cool factor alive.

Just link it to a minimum age, just like alcohol. That oughta satisfy the risk-takers.

[slimshady2357]

The thing that bothers me the most about pot being illegal is that hundreds of thousands of people go to jail for choosing a recreational drug that is less addictive and no less safe or harmful than drugs which are legal.

It comes down to choice. And people are given the choice to drink alcohol and yet denied the choice to smoke pot.

Questions like "Why do people need to smoke pot? Are children of parents who smoke pot getting good care? Do pot smoking teenagers go on to be as successful as non-smoking teenagers?" all apply to alcohol drinkers as well. And yet society has said, you know what, alcohol causes problems, but we're going to give people that choice anyway. And if you don't like alcohol, but prefer a different recreational drug, one less addictive and less dangerous in many ways, well that's too bad, do it and you're going to jail.

It's as if cabbage was legal and lettuce was illegal. And we're going to ruin people's lives because they choose lettuce over cabbage.

Legs, all the reasons you've given so far for why pot should stay illegal apply even stronger to why alcohol should be made illegal. Yet you don't seem to argue for that. It doesn't matter anyway, prohibition didn't work. And it doesn't work in the case of pot either.

What we need is accurate, readily available and detailed information on the dangers/effects of both short term and long term usage of all drugs, including alcohol. The money wasted on the war on drugs should be put towards education about drugs and the rehibilitation of addicts. It would be much better spent that way.

[Legs]

Originally Posted by slimshady2357

It comes down to choice. And people are given the choice to drink alcohol and yet denied the choice to smoke pot.

Legs, all the reasons you've given so far for why pot should stay illegal apply even stronger to why alcohol should be made illegal. Yet you don't seem to argue for that. It doesn't matter anyway, prohibition didn't work.

That is a crybaby mentality whining and stamping your feet "I want pot, coz Jimmy has alcohol, it's not fair.. wahhh."

Alcohol is already here, prohibition didn't go over too well last time, as you recalled. You're right - it doesn't matter.

If alcohol and pot are so similar (practically identical to some on this thread) why not just stick to alcohol? if they are the same - why does it matter so much?

[BDS]

Here in Oregon, drugs intended to kill you are legal, and pot is illegal.

It's so confusing that I need a drink.

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by Legs

In the context of this thread [marijuana] does [exist in a vacuum], marijuana is what we are discussing here and instead of stating your view you muddy the waters by bringing up corrupt doctors.

My remark about doctors was pretty obviously an aside. I was talking about prescription drugs, which they happen to dispense, and as I said, it's impossible to talk about marijuana and its legal status without reference to all the other drugs and their legal status. You've been doing it yourself throughout this thread.

My view is that your Reefer Madness-style borderline hysteria is laughable when hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, have their lives either ruined or ended every year as the direct result of alcohol, and when it's common practice to prescribe anti-psychotic medication to misbehaving children, to name just two obvious situations.

As for alcohol, when's the last time you heard of a man stabbing his wife to death in a pot-induced haze? And how come you can put your 7-year-old kid on Ritalin or Lithium, but a cancer patient can't smoke a joint to help alleviate the discomfort of chemotherapy?

To demonize marijuana in the face of the real drug problems in society seems to me the height of absurdity.

[Ari]

Originally Posted by Legs

Hi Ari, I enjoyed your well reasoned post.

You can get around false dichotomies by expanding on your answers, which you did. A no brainer.

Nothing about this topic is cut and dried/black and white and as I have said several times only time will tell.

One other point I wanted to make earlier but forgot was simply that many teens smoke pot because it is illegal and risky, that's the attraction. To prove something to someone.

When/if this drug is legal I suspect another drug will have to take it's place to keep the cool factor alive.

Thanks.

I agree, there is always the danger that after legalization those that smoke it because it's taboo or rebellious will move to something more dangerous. Although IMHO the benefits outweigh the dangers. There is also a small bit of evidence that it wouldn't have much of an effect. The number of kids using DXM (a chemical in cough syrup) might suggest it has less to do with the illegal issues and more the high or rebelling against parents (for parents who don't want their kids to get high, even a legal high works).


To add to the driving posts, although many say stoned driving is less dangerous than drunk driving IMHO any driving or endangerment while on a drug that can impair your motor skills is irresponsible and should be more severely punished. In the case of drugs and alcohol the 0.08 limit most states have isn't solid. You can be charged with impaired driving while under the legal limit, on prescription meds or other drugs, your behavior on the road dictates whether you are charged. The alcohol limit is really misleading, A couple times I have been felt pretty smashed and I couldn't get a pocket breathalyzer to go above half the limit.
There really needs to be a test made to tell whether someone is impaired on pot at that moment, as most tests just check for use. Alcohol is the exception for many drugs, being fulling metabolized about as quickly as the effects ware off.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Legs

That is a crybaby mentality whining and stamping your feet "I want pot, coz Jimmy has alcohol, it's not fair.. wahhh."

Alcohol is already here, prohibition didn't go over too well last time, as you recalled. You're right - it doesn't matter.

If alcohol and pot are so similar (practically identical to some on this thread) why not just stick to alcohol? if they are the same - why does it matter so much?

The use to which both are put are similar, but the results are way different. Alcohol is a physiologically addictive drug with demonstrable adverse physical and psychological effects. Cannabis use has little in the way of demonstrable and uncontroversial physiological effects. Indeed, as noted, it has demonstrable beneficial effects for cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy (as a anti-nausea agent), and glaucoma and migraine sufferers. I'd say we should ban alcohol as a dangerous drug and legalize cannabis as less dangerous than aspirin. The only known and research supported effect is that it causes laryngeal irritation....a trait it shares with tobacco, the means of yet another legal drug administration.

If you are to stoop to ad hominems, can we now start calling you a "racist"?

[Legs]

Originally Posted by Ari

There really needs to be a test made to tell whether someone is impaired on pot at that moment

Yes, I was trying to get that point across to D. Scarlatti.

Of course there are blood and urine tests, but I was under the impression the police needed a warrant to force cooperation with those required samples and this takes some time.

It is not as easy as with the Breathalyzer and alcohol, done instantly, carside.

[slimshady2357]

Originally Posted by Legs

That is a crybaby mentality whining and stamping your feet "I want pot, coz Jimmy has alcohol, it's not fair.. wahhh."

No it's not. It's "People shouldn't have to go to jail for making a choice similar to one Jimmy does. It's not fair."

And it's not.

Alcohol is already here, prohibition didn't go over too well last time, as you recalled. You're right - it doesn't matter.

Exactly and it's not going down well with pot either. So why continue it in this case?

If alcohol and pot are so similar (practically identical to some on this thread) why not just stick to alcohol? if they are the same - why does it matter so much?

They are similar in many ways. But alcohol is more addictive. Overdoses that kill people are far, far more likely with alcohol, making it more dangerous in the short term usage. Far more people die every year from alcohol related causes. They are similar, just alcohol is more dangerous and addictive. And what if someone is allergic to alcohol? Or doesn't like the effects of alcohol, since they are different to those of pot? They should go to jail for that? You call that fair?

I find it strange (and revealing) that you don't seem to care as much about the children of alcoholic parents, the teens that die from alcohol poisoning, the drunk driving deaths, the families split apart from physical abuse related to alcohol abuse etc... as you do about similar issues concerning pot use and abuse. Especially since they are far, far more prevelant.

[Legs]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

If you are to stoop to ad hominems, can we now start calling you a "racist"?

Alcohol is a lost cause at this point, I'm sure you realize that. I really don't understand this lame/weak argument... "but... but... but, alcohol is the same" (unless you're 10 years old)

Proponents for legalized marijuana need some new material and more compelling arguments. Until then, here's a soother

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Legs

Yes, I was trying to get that point across to D. Scarlatti.

Of course there are blood and urine tests, but I was under the impression the police needed a warrant to force cooperation with those required samples and this takes some time.

It is not as easy as with the Breathalyzer and alcohol, done instantly, carside.

Yep... And blood and urine tests do not tell you whether the person is actually under the intoxicating effects. The unique characteristics of the active ingredient in cannabis, THC, means that it accumulates in the body's fatty tissues and can be identified as much as a month to six weeks after ingestion.

This again places the least dangerous intoxicant in the position of being the easiest to track who is a "user", but not who is presently under the effects. The "pee-tests" will not catch that a testee was a cocaine user just the day before, or meth, or opiates...but it will show that the testee has ingested THC in the past month or so.

I don't know about Sasketchewan or the prairie provinces, but around here, we are releasing those who commit property crimes and low-level felons who commit things like robbery because of jail and prison overcrowding. One of the reasons for the prison overcrowding is the idiocy of incarcerating cannabis users (NOT just purveyors) for extended periods of time. It's f**king assinine.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Legs

Alcohol is a lost cause at this point, I'm sure you realize that. I really don't understand this lame/weak argument... "but... but... but, alcohol is the same" (unless you're 10 years old)

Proponents for legalized marijuana need some new material and more compelling arguments. Until then, here's a soother

Let me say it again, only so simple and so loud you can understand it...maybe:

They are NOT the same.
Alcohol is by far more dangerous. Physiologically, psychologically and socially.

Fuckin' racists.

[slimshady2357]

Originally Posted by Legs

Alcohol is a lost cause at this point, I'm sure you realize that. I really don't understand this lame/weak argument... "but... but... but, alcohol is the same" (unless you're 10 years old)

Of course you don't understand it. You don't care if people go to jail for making a safer choice than alcohol. Screw them, right?

After all, alcohol is ok, because it's already accepted, or it's a lost cause...

Basically, you're a hypocrite.

[slimshady2357]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Let me say it again, only so simple and so loud you can understand it...maybe:

They are NOT the same.
Alcohol is by far more dangerous. Physiologically, psychologically and socially.

Fuckin' racists.

Ya, but Legs doesn't give a shit about that. Send the pot users to jail anyway. Fuck 'em.

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by Legs

Alcohol is a lost cause at this point ...

Proponents for legalized marijuana need some new material and more compelling arguments. Until then, here's a soother

If alleviating the suffering of terminal cancer patients isn't a compelling argument, then you're the lost cause.

[Legs]

Originally Posted by slimshady2357

"People shouldn't have to go to jail for making a choice similar to one Jimmy does. It's not fair."

Jimmy's choice is not illegal Jimmy hasn't committed a crime.

Originally Posted by slimshady2357

Exactly and it's not going down well with pot either. So why continue it in this case?

It won't go away, but with it being illegal it won't run rampant either. Most likely it will stay the same.

Originally Posted by slimshady

Or doesn't like the effects of alcohol, since they are different to those of pot?

Sorry, are you now backpeddling and saying that the effects of alcohol and pot are not the same? I thought you were all telling me they were the same. Are they or are they not, make up your mind.

Originally Posted by slimshady

I find it strange (and revealing) that you don't seem to care as much about the children of alcoholic parents, the teens that die from alcohol poisoning, the drunk driving deaths, the families split apart from physical abuse related to alcohol abuse etc... as you do about similar issues concerning pot use and abuse. Especially since they are far, far more prevelant.

What are you talking about? this thread is about marijuana, not alcohol - if you start a thread on alcohol I will be sure to stop by an mention the children of alcoholics and how bad I feel for them, but that's not what this thread is about so there is no need to go down that road.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by slimshady2357

Ya, but Legs doesn't give a shit about that. Send the pot users to jail anyway. Fuck 'em.

Yeah... I think it's time that Legs pinned one of these on her lapel: H

No, excuse me....not on her lapel, on the outside of her Klan sheet.

[Legs]

Scarlatti put your glasses on

My Post #75

Originally Posted by Legs

I don't see the benefits except to those suffering from diseases/conditions that smoking up can alleviate pain.