"And every knee shall bow . . ."

[quiet bear]

Originally Posted by Sock Puppet

Sock Puppet, Armchair English Linguist.

you were the coolest kid in school, weren't you?

[maddog]

thanks for the correction, godfry. Right, Persian overlord, and liberator of the Israelites. And as you say, Cyrus was referred to in the opening of the Isaiah chapter by god as his "anointed" -- i.e., a "messiah." (Isaiah 45:1 ' 'This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of ...' " )

Nonetheless, the God of Israel is still swearing to/on himself that everyone will bow down to him and acknowledge him as the one-and-only-god. Sounds, as I say, very much like the bumper-sticker sentiment. It sounds as if the God of Israel wants to force everyone to do two things: 1) get down onto their knees and grovel, and 2) orally either praise him, or at least admit, "you-da-god!" -- that he is too powerful and the gods they formerly worshipped can't beat him.

#894

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by maddog

thanks for the correction, godfry. Right, Persian overlord, and liberator of the Israelites. And as you say, Cyrus was referred to in the opening of the Isaiah chapter by god as his "anointed" -- i.e., a "messiah." (Isaiah 45:1 ' 'This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of ...' " )

Nonetheless, the God of Israel is still swearing to/on himself that everyone will bow down to him and acknowledge him as the one-and-only-god. Sounds, as I say, very much like the bumper-sticker sentiment. It sounds as if the God of Israel wants to force everyone to do two things: 1) get down onto their knees and grovel, and 2) orally either praise him, or at least admit, "you-da-god!" -- that he is too powerful and the gods they formerly worshipped can't beat him.

#894

Sounds like he's overcompensating for his inadequacies.

[maddog]

Do the epistolary iterations refer to the "end times" "Judgment Day" scenario?

#898

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by maddog

Do the epistolary iterations refer to the "end times" "Judgment Day" scenario?

#898

To which "epsitolary iterations" do you refer?

I'm under the impression that the epistles of Paul refer to the impending end of time and the coming in of the "Kingdom of God", but I don't remember all the "Judgement Day" scenario (Jesus enthroned on the right hand of YHWH and the judgement of souls).

Keep in mind that what we know as the "New Testament" is the result of a reactionary process, as well. Marcion of Sinope reputedly collected the epistles of Paul and combined them with what were edited versions of GLuke and Acts to create the first christian collection of scripture; his 'canon'.

http://www.ntcanon.org/Marcion.shtml

Marcion, therefore, rejected the entire Old Testament. He accepted the following Christian writings in this order:

Gospel according to Luke
Galatians
I Corinthians
II Corinthians
Romans
I Thessalonians
II Thessalonians
Ephesians (which Marcion called Laodiceans)
Colossians
Philemon
Philippians
but only after pruning and editorial adjustment. In his opinion the 12 apostles misunderstood the teaching of Christ, and, holding him to be the Messiah of the Jewish God, falsified his words from that standpoint. Passages that Marcion could regard only as Judaizing interpolations, that had been smuggled into the text by biased editors, had to be removed so the authentic text of Gospel and Apostle could once again be available. After these changes, the Gospel according to Luke became the Evangelicon, and the 10 Pauline letters, the Apostolikon.

This occurred in the second century CE and led to a crisis for what we have come to recognize as the 'orthodox' church. The crisis was "What IS the canon?"

[maddog]

godfry, I mean the repetitions of the Isaiah phrase, 'every knee shall bow/bend' in the epistles Romans 14:11 and Philippians 2:10 that were noted earlier.

#899

[maddog]

The bumper sticker brigade have lifted out and placed in a prominent place, only the phrase, "and every knee shall bow." In the original Isaiah context God is vowing to himself that every knee shall bow and that every tongue will acknowledge him. In the epistles, the writers iterate that God has vowed that every knee shall bow and every tongue proclaim him, or that God has given Jesus the name that he has designed to be the one that every one will bow to, and everyone acknowledge, to the glory of God. Or something like that.

How do these statements envision that all this bowing down and proclaiming Jesus/God is/are going to occur? Do God and his followers assume that, once a human being is convinced of God's existence (i.e., God is revealed to them as the Creator of the universe), then bowing down and praising God will automatically follow? Or is it a vengeful sort of stance, that once you get in front of God to be judged (or captured by Cyrus or something) then you will be forced to bow down and forced to utter words of praise?

If someone is forced to bow down to and utter praises to God, what good is that? that only means that God is a bully and that he is happy to make hypocritical followers. Doesn't speak well of God's character. OTOH, just revealing himself, as far as he is the same guy told of in the OT and the NT, and that what is said there about him is true, just knowing that that god is real is not enough to make a person bow down or sing praise. The god-person described there is, as far as I can tell, a bad or evil being, unworthy of praise.

Whenever I take my aunt to church, I am struck by the songs they sing, the things their book says, and the things their ministers say, all about praise praise praise praise and worship worship worship worship worship. It all makes their god seem like a tantruming childish egomaniac, me me me me me me me me. Obedience is the golden virtue; all others pale by comparison. It's a very authoritarian view.

#902