Is Light a Property of the Eye?

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Judge Floro believes he talks to elves and that colors have power
David Mabus thinks Nostradamus will somehow prove to be the fall of atheism
Tim Brewer thinks dead people hang around Earth wishing they could communicate
You believe numbers have power and you see synchronicity and patterns in the most mundane of situations

What does any of that have to do with taking the Lord's name in vain or with organized religion?

This is actually a good reply, as much as I don't like it. This is why I opted to thank you first, before everyone else stands in line.

[erimir]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Eh, why go to a good movie if you already know the ending beforehand? Maybe the Creator is much more powerful and intelligent than we are willing to give Him credit for?

You realize that latter question is completely irrelevant?

Him being more powerful doesn't entail any particular reason for him to communicate via cryptic patterns rather than clearly and directly.

And yes, it has just everything to do with free will.

How, exactly, does revealing his existence take away your free will?

If I explain to you that tigers live in India, does that take away your free will to believe they live on Mars? Is that freedom in any way valuable? Should I give a shit whether you can believe tigers live on Mars? Should you? If I give you a math book, you're no longer "free" to believe that 7*9=43. Does anybody care about this?

I don't think that anyone would, in any other context, describe education as taking away freedom. No one would say that their free will was trampled on because they were taught about how photosynthesis works. Quite the opposite - if anything, people tend to think that education is a good thing, and that it can increase your freedom. But yet when it comes to God, supposedly God providing you with more information is supposed to be bad and take away your freedom.

Why then, do these people not just shut their fucking mouths and let everyone else have the ultimate freedom of never hearing about God, Jesus or Christianity at all from anyone, much less from God's own mouth? If our freedom to be ignorant is so important, why do these people keep on impinging on our freedom to never learn about their stupid religion?

I personally consider this one of the most idiotic and annoying arguments that Christians theists make.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by erimir

You realize that latter question is completely irrelevant?

Really, and if I'm aware of every move that I make beforehand, prior to making the "required" choices in order to make those moves, how does it not interfere with my ability to choose? At the very least I am just going through the motions, and it "spoils" the ending, like I say.

Him being more powerful doesn't entail any particular reason for him to communicate via cryptic patterns rather than clearly and directly.

Why isn't everybody automatically born quoting Shakespeare? Maybe it's an acquired taste, just like everything else? In which case, yes, it becomes a matter of preference, or choice. Plus, by our choosing "voluntarily," these are the things that we acquire to ourselves, in terms of those things we esteem and value most in life. If we knew everything beforehand, we are robbed of this, and may as well be acting as robots.

How, exactly, does revealing his existence take away your free will?

At the very least it stacks the deck, in which case everything we do is directed towards pleasing Him, and so detracts from our ability to live and learn on our own account. Maybe He's not looking for "suck ups" in other words? Which, of course defeats the whole purpose in creating creatures with the ability to think. Neither can anyone acknowledge Him on their own accord.

If I explain to you that tigers live in India, does that take away your free will to believe they live on Mars?

No.

Is that freedom in any way valuable? Should I give a shit whether you can believe tigers live on Mars? Should you?

Yes, because it requires I evaluate it and acknowledge it on my own accord. If, however, I am forced to accept it, without a myriad of possibilities to "choose" from, what is the point in that? Again, like I say, I may as well be a robot.

If I give you a math book, you're no longer "free" to believe that 7*9=43.

No.

Does anybody care about this?

Yes.

I don't think that anyone would, in any other context, describe education as taking away freedom. No one would say that their free will was trampled on because they were taught about how photosynthesis works.

So long as it's not compulsory and we are forced to accept it, yes.

Quite the opposite - if anything, people tend to think that education is a good thing, and that it can increase your freedom.

Again, so long as we are not forced to accept it.

But yet when it comes to God, supposedly God providing you with more information is supposed to be bad and take away your freedom.

Again, maybe it isn't about God as much as the fact that we "have a life." I tend to look at it more in terms of the programmer who creates a stand alone program. Which attests more to the prowess of the programmer, than the program he's always meddling with and trying to "fix." This, in fact is what I see before me.

Why then, do these people not just shut their fucking mouths and let everyone else have the ultimate freedom of never hearing about God, Jesus or Christianity at all from anyone, much less from God's own mouth?

Even though I don't agree with their tactics, as it is a form of brainwashing which, is the very thing we are talking about, it does present folks with the materials and opportunity, to perhaps discover it for themselves one day. That, should at least account for something. Beyond that, I don't see the need to take heed of everything they have to say.

If our freedom to be ignorant is so important, why do these people keep on impinging on our freedom to never learn about their stupid religion?

I don't suppose you've never heard the expression, "Do as I say, not as I do?" ... well, at least in terms of the way they present it anyway. Ideally it's something we all should come to terms with and understand for ourselves. It's not up to anybody else.

I personally consider this one of the most idiotic and annoying arguments that Christians theists make.

Notwithstanding that it exists at the very core of what makes us human. Oh well, suit yourself.

[erimir]

I am forced to believe that I can't fly by the fact that, you know, I can't. I don't have a "myriad of possibilities" to choose from. If I'm following logic, I must conclude that I can't fly. This has fuck all to do with my free will.

Knowing the facts about the world around me does not make me less free. Knowing God would not make me less free.

And btw, believing in God does not entail living your life to please him. If that's what God wants, it's God's rules that would be limiting my freedom, not the knowledge that he exists.

It's always silly Christians who think that believing in God entails doing all the stupid shit they do. To be honest, the mere existence of God is pretty much an academic question from my point of view. If I believed in God, it wouldn't change how I lived my life a damn bit, because it wouldn't entail that I do anything in particular. You need a whole shitload of legwork to get from "God exists" to "God wants you to spend all your time pleasing him" (whatever you happen to think pleasing him would consist of). But regardless, if that's what God wants me to do, then it's God whose limiting my freedom by telling me to do those things, like I said, and not by merely making his existence known.

But if God doesn't tell me he exists outright, and leaves clues by playing shitty pop songs at certain times of day and making my receipt for condoms and lube come out to a certain amount, and I figure them out, and figure out what he wants me to do - it's still fucking God limiting my freedom by telling me to do those things! And if I don't figure it out, then what's the fucking point? Am I going to be punished? You just end up with something else idiotic then.

By your logic, you now have less free will because I met you and revealed to you that I exist. It's a silly and stupid notion.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by erimir

I am forced to believe that I can't fly by the fact that, you know, I can't. I don't have a "myriad of possibilities" to choose from.

Some folks may not know unless they actually try ... or, at least give it some consideration. So yes, that requires the ability to think, and a variety of possibilities to choose from.

[erimir]

Well, clearly you choose to believe in stupid shit that makes no sense. That's a freedom you have that I don't.

[Iacchus]

One will never know anything, and is not "free" to act upon anything, unless they are given the opportunity to think.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by erimir

Knowing the facts about the world around me does not make me less free. Knowing God would not make me less free.

It does when the opportunists get ahold of it and begin to ram it down your throat. But, I have already mentioned this.

And btw, believing in God does not entail living your life to please him. If that's what God wants, it's God's rules that would be limiting my freedom, not the knowledge that he exists.

Notwithstanding if we don't come to Him of our own accord, there's no affiliation there, and we are not in cahoots. Meaning there's a possibility we may never know.

It's always silly Christians who think that believing in God entails doing all the stupid shit they do.

For those who are blind and suggestible, yes, they almost seem to require this.

To be honest, the mere existence of God is pretty much an academic question from my point of view.

In many ways (or, for the most part) I agree.

If I believed in God, it wouldn't change how I lived my life a damn bit, because it wouldn't entail that I do anything in particular.

That isn't to say it won't make a difference in some people's lives, however.

You need a whole shitload of legwork to get from "God exists" to "God wants you to spend all your time pleasing him" (whatever you happen to think pleasing him would consist of).

And, of course this is not what I'm suggesting.

But regardless, if that's what God wants me to do, then it's God whose limiting my freedom by telling me to do those things ...

Yes, this is what I've been saying.

... like I said, and not by merely making his existence known.

Which is to say it's not all that important then, right?

But if God doesn't tell me he exists outright ...

And of course is awfully demanding coming from someone who doesn't believe it's all that important. So ...

... and leaves clues by playing shitty pop songs at certain times of day and making my receipt for condoms and lube come out to a certain amount, and I figure them out, and figure out what he wants me to do ...

... why should it make any difference here? At least you can't accuse it of being boring anyway. Maybe that's important too?

... it's still fucking God limiting my freedom by telling me to do those things!

Eh, one only need look at all the awe and wonder little children experience when they are led by their parents. Do you think they are deprived of free will? No, on the contrary! And here, little children have been compared to the "greatest in heaven." ~ Matthew 18

And if I don't figure it out, then what's the fucking point?

Or, maybe it's only important that we have the opportunity to speculate on it. This is all I'm really saying.

Am I going to be punished?

If it means you haven't accepted something blindly, then no.

By your logic, you now have less free will because I met you and revealed to you that I exist. It's a silly and stupid notion.

But, then again, like you say, if it serves no inherent purpose, what's the point? We may as well make a game out of it and have some fun!

[Iacchus]

Wow, and then there was room 237 ...

YouTube- The Shining Room 237 Clip

And then there was room 312 ...

Oh well, it was in the movie, Millennium, a movie that came out in 1989.

[Iacchus]

Oh, God speaks to us by means of symbolic reference by the way. It's just like any other language though (which are basically just symbols). If you don't understand what the symbols mean, and don't work with them, then you shouldn't expect to understand what it means. It's really quite simple.

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Oh, God speaks to us by means of symbolic reference by the way. It's just like any other language though (which are basically just symbols). If you don't understand what the symbols mean, and don't work with them, then you shouldn't expect to understand what it means. It's really quite simple.

For some reason god appears to use different symbolic references with different people. That is not a language. A language would use the same symbolic references with all the people that speak or understand that language.

Here is a message for you from the mind over the universe:

Originally Posted by mindOverTheUniverse

soiu sadfgooig hjhgofgh zhfjkld o0 349834 3.14159 djregj 6.02x10^-23 $%^&*( asjkkjlkljjkljklkjljkl/

Now I don't understand it but I am sure you do. I'll bet it has something to do with just how special you are.

[Iacchus]

It has more to do with our own personal experience and what we understand on that level. So yes, in that respect, each of us are different. Neither would we be capable of understanding if it were any other way.

[ceptimus]

Shouldn't that be 6.02x10^23

The minus sign seems out of place.

[Iacchus]

Yeah well, look at math. It's highly symbolic. Yet, are we to credit its creation to the human mind or, just its discovery? On top of the that, what, if anything does it have to do with the structure of atoms and quarks and all the rest of that good stuff? If, in fact it has nothing to do with it, much as I surmise -- or else, please demonstrate how it does -- and yet, it is only accessible or apparent via the human mind, how does this not infer that we are somehow in contact with Who or whatever created it?

At any rate, if we are so miffed that "God" doesn't communicate with us directly, guess again. Notwithstanding that so many things are left unsaid, however, this is not what we are griping about now is it?

[sparks]

22 pages. This thread is now 22 pages long. And it was started by some Dipshit asking if eyeballs came first or if light did.

Dipshit also seems to have an unnatural fascination for the word 'notwithstanding'.

Fuck all notwithstanding, Iacchus, 'bout time you got a new shtick.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

I don't know, did eyeballs evolve due to the pre-existence of light? Or, did light just happen to come about as a result of eyeballs, which must have come first?

Obviously, eyeballs did not come first. That was the whole point.

So, why should it be any different with consciousness, with respect to the development of the human brain, where the end purpose of the brain serves as a means to channel consciousness and provide human awareness? Wouldn't it make more sense to say that consciousness were the pre-existent property in this regard?

Or, maybe they didn't bother to read that far?

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by ceptimus

Shouldn't that be 6.02x10^23

The minus sign seems out of place.

So ya think it might not be a message from the mind over the universe?

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

It has more to do with our own personal experience and what we understand on that level. So yes, in that respect, each of us are different. Neither would we be capable of understanding if it were any other way.

Messages that are only understood by a specific receiver are more likely to originate from that receiver. Especially when the specific receiver is a narcissist like you Iacchus.

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

At any rate, if we are so miffed that "God" doesn't communicate with us directly, guess again. Notwithstanding that so many things are left unsaid, however, this is not what we are griping about now is it?

Yeah that must be it Iacchus, we are just jealous that you are sooooo special.

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Yeah well, look at math. It's highly symbolic. Yet, are we to credit its creation to the human mind or, just its discovery?

Attaching the symbol "rock" to a rock neither credits its creation or discovery. It is just a way for people to use a common language to talk about rocks without having to point to a rock. (Unless you are trying to tell me that the first person to discover or create a rock was named Rock?)

For instance, I can talk about the rocks in your head but I certainly did not create them nor do I think that I am first to know you have them in your head.

[Iacchus]

I think you missed something ...

Originally Posted by Iacchus

On top of the that, what, if anything does it have to do with the structure of atoms and quarks and all the rest of that good stuff? If, in fact it has nothing to do with it, much as I surmise -- or else, please demonstrate how it does -- and yet, it is only accessible or apparent via the human mind, how does this not infer that we are somehow in contact with Who or whatever created it?

Would you care to explain how mathematics arise from matter?

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by naturalist.atheist

Yeah that must be it Iacchus, we are just jealous that you are sooooo special.

I'm not sure what it has to do with being jealous, but yeah, it is possible to know.

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

I think you missed something ...

Would you care to explain how mathematics arise from matter?

Mathematics are a collection of techniques created by humans that humans use to make counting easier. The universe counts. It counted before the first human thought, it will count after the last human thought.

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

I'm not sure what it has to do with being jealous, but yeah, it is possible to know.

Know what?

[Awareness]

[QUOTE=Iacchus;608844]I don't know, did eyeballs evolve due to the pre-existence of light? Or, did light just happen to come about as a result of eyeballs, which must have come first?

Light is in the first place a property of the sun, but not the important one.
The mole or some fish do not need eyes, for there where they live is little light.

Colour in fact is not a permanent quality, it changes.

Having crappy lighting at home, is a no no when your wife buys clothes.

Having eyes in the first place, or as you say eyeballs, is to see and look around you.

Have you done that yet Iacchus?

So sight, sound and touch is also not to be taken for granted, you have to cherish these also.