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Old 09-01-2020, 03:33 AM
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Poll The People's Party

I watched all 4-5 hours of the People's Party Convention yesterday. I agree with their platform and with most of what was said by most of the speakers, but I think their strategy is terribly misguided.

I know it sucks that we're encouraged to vote for the "lesser of two evils" every four years instead of having a candidate that's actually left of center, but this year really feels different to me.

I genuinely believe that if the Trump party manages to say in office the left is done in this country until such a time as their is a genuine revolution, and there could very well be a lot of blood before and during any such uprising.

Maybe it's because I'm identifying as a Socialist these days and having read The Jakarta Method recently I'm acutely aware of the danger of embracing that ideology in an autocracy, but I'm legitimately concerned.

I would have been way more enthusiastic about this convention if the overarching message had been "vote Trump out in November, push PP progressives in 2022 and maybe a PP candidate in 2024". In fact I kind of expected that to be the message when I saw that Cornel West was one of the key speakers because I know he's all about "building an antifascist coalition to push that neofascist gangster Trump out of the White House".

Anyway. Vote Biden. :usa:
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  #2  
Old 09-01-2020, 03:48 AM
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Default Re: The People's Party

No way is a brand new party going to bring everyone together!
The aims are obviously right: everybody needs health care and money in politics was always a bad idea. But it's far too abstract for most people to identify with - even if they had not been so ruthlessly, relentlessly brain-hosed by the capitalist ideology.
However excellent the seed, nothing will grow in hard-packed earth.
Got to do the spadework first.
Bernie Sanders has been working hard at that for a long time; other Democrats have their little patch here and there. This would be a good moment to acknowledge and reinforce those messages with a solid, practical list of proposals.
And then offer their support to the anti-Trump movement.
There are three emergencies at hand that must be tackled by the largest possible coalition you can muster, before any fancy new program can even be considered.
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  #3  
Old 09-01-2020, 04:10 AM
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Default Re: The People's Party

It's a great feeling to know in my riding the Tories are outnumbered two to one by the NDP, Liberals, and Greens, and still manage to send to Ottawa they guy who thinks mental illness is cured with bootstraps.
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Old 09-01-2020, 04:44 AM
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Default Re: The People's Party

Oh yes, and proportional representation.
I'm voting Green in a riding so dimally PC that the last fathead* got more votes than the other four candidates combined, so if I'm wasting one anyway, it might as well be in the count as not-PC. But if a not-horrific candidate had a snowball's chance, I'd vote strategically.

(* Any theories why they run so many conservatives who look as if they came to power in that Orwell novel?)

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Old 09-01-2020, 04:16 PM
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Default Re: The People's Party

I don't see the poll.
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Old 09-01-2020, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: The People's Party

:LOL: Marianne Williamson. pass
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Old 09-01-2020, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: The People's Party

Well, there is going to be blood no matter what the outcome is. Period. Just expect it.

Trump's been ramping up the stochastic terrorism, and it's getting more blatant all the time. He just gave an interview with Laura Ingraham where he said that Biden was controlled by dark forces, and that there was a planeload of thugs dressed all in black spotted on a plane to DC, calling on Qanon and white supremacists.

There will be violence, period. People aren't going to magically deradicalize.

The best we can hope for is that Biden and Harris win in a landslide and we see a major blue sweep across the board, because that might tamp down some of the violence from the reactionary right. Then, we can clean up as much of the messes as possible right away with some functional pandemic response and lots of criminal investigations. And THEN, it'll be safe to protest for real progressive policies and work toward voting in some real progressive candidates in future elections who won't need to be watched as closely as most Democrats do.

And I'm just not on board with anything that has any potential to weaken support for getting Trump and his enablers voted out as clearly and as decisively as possible.
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Old 09-01-2020, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
Well, there is going to be blood no matter what the outcome is. Period. Just expect it.
Yes, we do. It's started already and can only escalate.
This evil clown has no boundaries - at all. He will do anything he thinks is required to stay in power, including a hostile takeover of Congress by armed redhats, if he can't hobble the election, subdue non-compliant cities, or get the armed forces to enforce martial law.

- That last one is what I'm holding my breath over. Could go either way.
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  #9  
Old 11-22-2020, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: The People's Party

Now that the election is over and Biden might be inaugurated in January, I'm more sympathetic to this idea of a new party. They have settled on the name "People's Party" and will be attempting to become official in Maine first. This was in their mailer:

Quote:
We will pass a new social contract, make health care and pre-kindergarten to college free, guarantee a good-paying job and a basic income, end mass incarceration and bring the troops home, ensure housing for all and get money out of politics, free the nation from the grip of monopolies and trusts, provide a secure retirement and a liveable climate, and so much more. Together we will herald the Second Progressive Era in American history.
I think it will be easier to win hearts and minds to a "People's Party" than it has been to get people to take a "Green Party" seriously, but who knows? We are definitely living in unprecedented times, and unless Biden rips off his mask and reveals FDR in the next six months the economic and social collapse we're going to experience is gonna be epic.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: The People's Party

Now that the election is over and Biden might be inaugurated in January, I'm more sympathetic to this idea of a new party. They have settled on the name "People's Party" and will be attempting to become official in Maine first. This was in their mailer:

Quote:
We will pass a new social contract, make health care and pre-kindergarten to college free, guarantee a good-paying job and a basic income, end mass incarceration and bring the troops home, ensure housing for all and get money out of politics, free the nation from the grip of monopolies and trusts, provide a secure retirement and a liveable climate, and so much more. Together we will herald the Second Progressive Era in American history.
I think it will be easier to win hearts and minds to a "People's Party" than it has been to get people to take a "Green Party" seriously, but who knows? We are definitely living in unprecedented times, and unless Biden rips off his mask and reveals FDR in the next six months the economic and social collapse we're going to experience is gonna be epic.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:00 PM
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Default Re: The People's Party

If they make it through an organizing convention without organizing into a circular firing squad of competing purity tests, that will end in tears and incomprensible mutual twitter recriminations (rose twitter has the most hilarious and venomous infighting) well before they field a candidate. It has all the makings of failure just in Ryan Knight :lol: But many hours of podcasts featuring Glenn Greenwald between now and then, no matter what. Subscribe on Patreon yo
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Old 11-22-2020, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories View Post
Maine
Susan Collins furrows her brow with concern.
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Old 11-23-2020, 12:31 AM
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Default Re: The People's Party

Glenn Greenwald and Ryan Knight are definitely drama queens, but I rarely disagree with them on substance. The purity testing on the leftist Twitter bubble I'm in is for real though. I have no doubt that any 100 of the people whose tweets appear on my feed would start 90 subtly different parties and each would insist that all the others are right-wing.
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Old 11-23-2020, 04:09 AM
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Default Re: The People's Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories View Post
Now that the election is over and Biden might be inaugurated in January, I'm more sympathetic to this idea of a new party.
What has changed structurally in US politics that makes you think that a third party is more viable now than it was previously?

What about the past few years of Bernie Sanders pushing the platform left and the Squad getting elected to Congress makes you think that third-party politics is more effective at achieving progressive results compared to running within the Democratic Party?

What about the closeness of this presidential election and some of the Senate races makes you think that splitting the left-leaning vote would be any better of an idea in 2022 or 2024?
Quote:
They have settled on the name "People's Party" and will be attempting to become official in Maine first.
At least this part is sensible since Maine has IRV. Although it seems that there are some legal hiccups with applying it to all elections in the state, so it might not actually be used for some elections like governor. Alaska might be a better option under their new system.

But to be honest, instant-runoff voting is just false hope for third parties. It's not likely to work out that well. They've had IRV in Australia for years and yet they still have only two major parties.

The fundamental problem is that there just isn't majority support for something like a Green Party. There's no special trick that solves that problem, there's no electoral system that does that other than having a system that's like the inverse of our current system (one that structurally favored cities and other more progressive constituencies so that Democrats could lose the popular vote and nonetheless win control of Congress and the presidency). I just don't see any path to doing that.

The most likely outcome is that outside of a few left-wing seats, the People's Party gets eliminated before the final round, and then the Republican or Democrat wins the seat. They won't play spoiler due to the reform, but they also won't win.
Quote:
I think it will be easier to win hearts and minds to a "People's Party" than it has been to get people to take a "Green Party" seriously, but who knows?
If you're interested in winning hearts and minds to progressivism, there are better things than third-party politics, which faces too many structural barriers in our system. You'd be better off supporting unionization efforts, for example.
Quote:
We are definitely living in unprecedented times, and unless Biden rips off his mask and reveals FDR in the next six months the economic and social collapse we're going to experience is gonna be epic.
There has definitely been some talk of forgiving $50k worth of federal student loans per borrower (from Chuck Schumer, not a fringe Democrat), so there are some big executive actions on the table.

As for ripping of his mask and revealing FDR, it wouldn't matter if he literally did reveal himself to be reanimated FDR when the Senate is 50-50, or has a Republican majority, there are a lot of things that can't be done without Congress and the deciding votes are going to be either Republicans or moderate Democrats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories View Post
Glenn Greenwald and Ryan Knight are definitely drama queens, but I rarely disagree with them on substance.
Glenn Greenwald is a toxic narcissist who basically supports Trump. He thinks the biggest scandal of the past two months is that Twitter censored misinformation about Hunter Biden, not that Trump is blatantly trying to hold onto power after losing the election.

I don't actually see what value he provides. Being reflexively against drones doesn't give you any insight that you couldn't get from better foreign policy journalists and wouldn't come along with denialism about Russian meddling and constantly complaining that Democrats are being too strident in their criticism of Trump/the GOP. He spends more time litigating whether it's really appropriate to call Trump a fascist than criticizing Trump's fascist-y behavior. There's a reason he keeps getting invited onto Tucker Carlson's White Power Hour and retweeted by Don Jr and others - and it's certainly not because he's actually a force for progressivism.

Ryan Knight is just a clout-chasing Twitter grifter who completely changed his personality after he realized that supporting Warren after she lost was going to be a dead-end for his social media career.

On policy, I'm sure he supports a lot of things I agree with. That's his whole shtick, is just parroting left-wing policies that other people came up with. Does he offer any thoughtful policy analysis? Not that I've seen. The thing is that I can get all the good things Knight and Greenwald have to offer without their toxic aspects by following any number of other people - and there are plenty of people who offer things BETTER than their best aspects.
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Old 11-23-2020, 05:00 AM
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Default Re: The People's Party

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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
Glenn Greenwald is a toxic narcissist who basically supports Trump. He thinks the biggest scandal of the past two months is that Twitter censored misinformation about Hunter Biden, not that Trump is blatantly trying to hold onto power after losing the election.

I don't actually see what value he provides. Being reflexively against drones doesn't give you any insight that you couldn't get from better foreign policy journalists and wouldn't come along with denialism about Russian meddling and constantly complaining that Democrats are being too strident in their criticism of Trump/the GOP. He spends more time litigating whether it's really appropriate to call Trump a fascist than criticizing Trump's fascist-y behavior. There's a reason he keeps getting invited onto Tucker Carlson's White Power Hour and retweeted by Don Jr and others - and it's certainly not because he's actually a force for progressivism.
Editors are the main fascists nowadays, I hear. Crazy we aren't talking about real problems like that, instead of media distractions like Trump refusing to participate in a peaceful transition of power.
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Old 11-23-2020, 08:05 PM
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Default Re: The People's Party

But seriously, at this point quite a lot of Greenwald's output is indistinguishable from a standard MAGA or anti-anti-Trump conservative. For example:



He also hasn't really done almost any original journalism for the past few years, he's almost purely a pundit. At this point, literally a Fox News pundit at that. One of the last bits of original reporting he did was interviewing a physically abusive (he choked his girlfriend), revenge-porn-blackmailing, school-shooting-threatening teenager who somehow won a Democratic state legislative primary. Democrats were saying to write in the old incumbents name instead, but since this kid had said "Medicare For All" and supported Bernie, the Democrats clearly were just going after him for that, not because he appears to be an abusive sociopath. Kid's so committed to progress that he threatened to caucus with the GOP in response to Democrats endorsing a different Democrat. Surely they will pass M4A. And how dare Democrats not forgive him for events from years ago, clearly he deserves not just to be forgiven his transgressions since he was just a kid, but to also be made a leader! (Except the physical abuse of his gf was actually from 2019, oops!) Boys will be boys, I guess.

This is the kind of shit Greenwald spends his time on, with what's going on in the world.
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Old 11-23-2020, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: The People's Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir
What has changed structurally in US politics that makes you think that a third party is more viable now than it was previously?
Nothing yet that I’m aware of, but I anticipate unprecedented domestic terrorism from the right and mass protests from the left as the pandemic and its economic impacts continue to ravage the country over the coming years and Biden keeps his promise that “nothing will fundamentally change” under his administration.

Quote:
What about the past few years of Bernie Sanders pushing the platform left and the Squad getting elected to Congress makes you think that third-party politics is more effective at achieving progressive results compared to running within the Democratic Party?
What are the substantial successes Bernie and the squad have had in pushing the party left? I know they have a big platform and they have a huge following, but from what I’ve seen the mainstream of the party spends a lot more energy on attacking and marginalizing them than on embracing their policy suggestions.

Quote:
What about the closeness of this presidential election and some of the Senate races makes you think that splitting the left-leaning vote would be any better of an idea in 2022 or 2024?
Most of the prominent Bernie supporters I know about (and many of his less prominent supporters) held their nose and voted for Biden in the general because they recognized the unique danger of Trump, so I don’t think a divided left was an issue in this election. I believe this election was as close as it was because the choice between two old white Republican men didn’t inspire more of a revolt (hence ~80 million still opting out) and the down-ballot races suffered because the Democrats made this entire election a referendum on Trump without doing a sufficient job over the past four years of tying the Republicans as a whole to Trump’s bad behavior. Right up to this very moment its virtually crickets from the Democratic leadership other than to criticize Trump for not conceding when the entire Republican apparatus is fully behind him.

Quote:
The most likely outcome is that outside of a few left-wing seats, the People's Party gets eliminated before the final round, and then the Republican or Democrat wins the seat. They won't play spoiler due to the reform, but they also won't win.
I definitely don’t know enough about electoral politics yet to comment on this.

Quote:
If you're interested in winning hearts and minds to progressivism, there are better things than third-party politics, which faces too many structural barriers in our system. You'd be better off supporting unionization efforts, for example.
Labor organizing is something I’ve been reading and thinking about a lot lately, but I’m struggling to figure out how to get more involved in that effort short of changing careers to something where unions are relevant.

Quote:
There has definitely been some talk of forgiving $50k worth of federal student loans per borrower (from Chuck Schumer, not a fringe Democrat), so there are some big executive actions on the table.

As for ripping of his mask and revealing FDR, it wouldn't matter if he literally did reveal himself to be reanimated FDR when the Senate is 50-50, or has a Republican majority, there are a lot of things that can't be done without Congress and the deciding votes are going to be either Republicans or moderate Democrats.
That comment from Schumer was nice to hear, but seems far-fetched that Austerity Joe will do it.

Yeah if Trump has demonstrated nothing else it’s that the office of the President has extraordinary power to make change without Congressional support, but Biden is all about bi-partisanship. I don’t see him bucking norms to exercise power in ways that upset his Republican friends.

Quote:
I don't actually see what value [Greenwald] provides.
I liked his interviews with Evo Morales and Lula da Silva, but I don’t really read/watch him much. What other journalists do you recommend that cover South and Central American politics well?
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Old 11-23-2020, 11:38 PM
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Default Re: The People's Party

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Originally Posted by viscousmemories View Post
What are the substantial successes Bernie and the squad have had in pushing the party left?
It's quite a complicated issue, and framing questions that uncover the answer you're looking for can be tricky. erimir hadn't suggested that the squad has pushed the the party left. Rather he suggests (I think) that their arrival indicates the party has moved to the left of where it was before. In other words, they are the movement left.

Bernie can take some significant credit in bringing the Dems to embrace health care reforms far more radical than Obama was able to get support for, I think. But movements to the left won't always come with "induced by ..." labels that neatly and unequivocally answer vm's question as he has worded it.

I would suggest that Biden's pick of Harris as VP is solid and stark evidence that, at least for now, the Democratic Party is quite some way to the left of where it was 5 years ago.
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Old 11-24-2020, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
What has changed structurally in US politics that makes you think that a third party is more viable now than it was previously?
My not-particularly-well-informed view from the outside is that third parties have emerged and become dominant within other democracies at times. That this has never happened in the US is probably a reflection of the ways the parties have acted more as patronage systems than as representative of particular coalitions of interest groups over the long term. When there is widespread social discontent the parties have realigned their coalitions and left no room for third parties. This stands in contrast to my own country, where the Labour movement of the 1920s and 1930s became a large enough party that the two formerly opposed parties (Liberal and Reform) joined forces to oppose them. If this sketch is broadly accurate, the question would be whether the US party system has become more more defined by interest groups and associated ideologies, to the point where a realignment is no longer likely.
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Old 11-24-2020, 08:48 AM
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To the point of the thread, I'll add that I think the best thing for y'all would be a popular movement for massive electoral reform to a more representative system, rather than a third party.
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Old 11-25-2020, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by fragment
My not-particularly-well-informed view from the outside is that third parties have emerged and become dominant within other democracies at times.
The original People's Party in the US, whose members called themselves 'populists', grew like wildfire in the late 19th century. From what I've learned about it their downfall was hitching their wagon to the Democratic candidate William Jennings Bryan in 1896 on the ground that he, like they, wanted to get the country off the gold standard.

It seems like they could have grown into a serious rival of the two major parties if they hadn't compromised their values so early in hopes of winning the presidency, but the lesson everyone seems to have taken away from that (which persists today) is that they were too radical, and that really the way to win is to be more like the Republicans.

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a popular movement for massive electoral reform to a more representative system
That sounds nice but what would that look like? There won't be any electoral reform unless the people in power allow it to happen, and there is literally no incentive for either party to do it as long as they have their captive (vote red/blue no matter who) bases. Our electoral system clearly isn't working for the American people, but it's working fine for the politicians.
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Old 11-25-2020, 01:03 AM
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Default Re: The People's Party

Electoral systems systems are by and large products of state law. Systems other than first-past-the-post voting are present in different places in the US. This is the first election where Maine has used ranked choice voting. Single transferable vote for legislative elections would bring some benefits with broader adoption.

Direct election of the president would also be a positive step.
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Old 11-25-2020, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by viscousmemories View Post
That sounds nice but what would that look like? There won't be any electoral reform unless the people in power allow it to happen, and there is literally no incentive for either party to do it as long as they have their captive (vote red/blue no matter who) bases. Our electoral system clearly isn't working for the American people, but it's working fine for the politicians.
It happened here in the early 90s after both major parties enacted major neoliberal reforms with massive social consequences. These were deeply unpopular and many people were disgusted with the two parties and became motivated to support the previously minor movement for electoral reform. The reform movement pushed for and won a couple of referendums on the topic, and the government of the time chose to enact the reforms rather than effectively admit a lack of democratic legitimacy. Probably helped that that government might have been trounced if the 1996 election had been held under first-past-the-post. Instead they got to cobble together a coalition and maintain power for another three years (a period which turned out to be pretty disastrous politically-speaking, but I guess they weren't to know). Funnily enough the two major parties have stayed dominant since electoral reform, and the previously unpopular neoliberalism has largely remained in place. These are linked - you get to be government largely by grabbing the centre rather than pandering to an ideological base, so the status quo tends to only be tinkered with. This has its own problems, but is more democratically legitimate than what we had before.

It is true that several smaller parties played a significant role in electoral reform here. While they were too disparate politically to be able to unify to challenge the dominant parties, they did all join together to campaign for the reforms. Probably they also threatened to split the votes of the major parties, with unpredictable consequences under FPP.

Of course, this would all look very different in the US. But you do seem to have some of the preconditions - widespread discontent with the electoral system and the major parties. You would need to somehow bring together people who have a lot of political distrust for one another, and probably go state by state. Get the parties out of things like redistricting, voter registration and rolls, and electoral results (they get to observe, but not manage or decide). Get a free and easy voter ID system in place. Push for proportional allocation of seats in the house and electoral college votes in each state. Instant runoff voting for the senate. Get the states to say they will support federal level constitutional reforms. Frame all of this so that those seeking to disenfranchise non-whites have to admit that's what they want to do if they try to oppose reforms.

Simple, huh? :P
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Old 11-25-2020, 01:34 AM
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Frame all of this so that those seeking to disenfranchise non-whites have to admit that's what they want to do if they try to oppose reforms.
They aren't shy about that admitting that now. Indeed, I think it thrills them to say it out loud. That's Trump's gift to the GOP. Pretty sure that's why they did so well down ballot this year.
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Old 11-25-2020, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: The People's Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragment
My not-particularly-well-informed view from the outside is that third parties have emerged and become dominant within other democracies at times.
The original People's Party in the US, whose members called themselves 'populists', grew like wildfire in the late 19th century. From what I've learned about it their downfall was hitching their wagon to the Democratic candidate William Jennings Bryan in 1896 on the ground that he, like they, wanted to get the country off the gold standard.

It seems like they could have grown into a serious rival of the two major parties if they hadn't compromised their values so early in hopes of winning the presidency, but the lesson everyone seems to have taken away from that (which persists today) is that they were too radical, and that really the way to win is to be more like the Republicans.
The real problem for the Populists was demographic. The US agricultural sector began a long and precipitous decline starting in the 1880s (no farm supports until the New Deal) and too many people left for the cities because the only jobs in the the rise in farm country were tractor dealers. By the time the Populists were gaining steam in the 1890s, there were no longer enough people living in just the rural areas of the US to deliver a national election to them. Then the sane pieces of their platform were co-opted by Progressives from both parties while the mainstream Republican candidate McKinley ran on the theme of FEAR (and imperialism) against three-time loser William Jennings Bryan.

Then a few years later TR attempted to create a true Progressive party from the disaffected progressives in both major parties. Which as third parties go, Roosevelt's party was most successful third party effort ever in US electoral history -- the only time a third party beat out one of the main party candidates (the Republican Taft, who came in third). But even with TR's cult of personality, which was formidable, and p. decent ideas for the time, all TR succeeded in doing though was driving the Progressives out of the Republican party and handing the election of 1912 to Woody Woodrow Woodhouse Wilson, who was arguably the most thin-skinned prick and racist motherfucker to occupy the White House until the Orange Douche.

My advice about third parties is -- without major structural changes to the way elections work in the US -- don't bother unless you want to hand the election to the guy you really don't want to win.
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