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Old 07-20-2004, 05:23 AM
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Default Limits to Free Speech

I'll make this one simple:

what are the limits that you're imposing on free speech? What sort of lattitude are you permitting of people?

The byline says "think waht you like, and say what you think..." but how far does that really extend?

What will the intervention process be? How will an aggrieved person seek redress for whatever offends them? I would think that reporting the post to the admins would be the course of action to take right now, given that the voting system has been disabled. But what happens if one of the admins is insulting, abusing and inappropriately speculating on the motives of others? What redress then?
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Old 07-20-2004, 05:39 AM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godot
I'll make this one simple:

what are the limits that you're imposing on free speech? What sort of lattitude are you permitting of people?

The byline says "think waht you like, and say what you think..." but how far does that really extend?
The only limits we impose on free speech are those outlined in our rules in the sticky in this forum.

Quote:
What will the intervention process be? How will an aggrieved person seek redress for whatever offends them?
At this time the only administrative intervention will be if one of our rules is broken, and we will intervene as described in the thread I referenced above.

Quote:
I would think that reporting the post to the admins would be the course of action to take right now, given that the voting system has been disabled.
You may of course report posts as you wish, but again we will not take any administrative action on posts that are not in violation of our written rules.

Quote:
But what happens if one of the admins is insulting, abusing and inappropriately speculating on the motives of others? What redress then?
I'm not sure what you mean. We have nothing in our rules that prohibits insulting, abusing, or inappropriately speculating on the motives of others, so I'm not sure what kind of 'redress' you would expect. However, it is of course not our intention to treat our members that way, so if you feel we have then I would encourage you to start a thread on the subject in this forum, and we can discuss it like we discuss any other forum administration issue.
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Old 07-20-2004, 07:11 AM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

That there is nothing in the rules prohibiting or even discouraging such behaviour is laudable but naive. Given the extra anonymity of the internet, many people feel that they can be that much more rude to one another. Take a look at how users treat each other when playing UT. That sort of shit is juvenile, but it does happen.

It will happen here too. The only thing you can do to stop pissing contests between users will be to lock the thread, but I suspect that that approach is too top down for the forum you envisioned. The problem is, people generally cannot restrain themselves as much on the net as they could in real life. Half of the insults tossed around casually on boards wouldn't be dreamed of being used to someone's face. The chance of a fist breaking your nose acts as quite the deterrent.

But under the current rule structure, I can call you (or any other user of the board) a cat-fucking, dildo-breathed cretin and there's nothing you can do to stop me. You can censor my posts, or ban me, but neither or those options are legitimate under your rules. So you either ignore me, or respond. No doubt, someone will respond on your behalf even if you don't. But what then? How do you stop the ensuing flamewar? Why would the person that is insulted out of the blue, and has no means of seeking redress for the poor behavious of others, even want to return to the board after such a display?
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Old 07-20-2004, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Hi Godot. I think the hope (my hope anyway) is that people will ignore total idiots and trolls, and that disputes between non troll members will be handled directly.

For instance, during a recent dispute I was involved in at HH, you let us go at it and work it out ourselves for the most part, and in the end, we came to a peace of sorts. I am only aware of one edit. Why did you choose the hands off approach, and do you regret your choices in the matter?

Last edited by LadyShea; 07-20-2004 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 07-20-2004, 07:49 AM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godot
That there is nothing in the rules prohibiting or even discouraging such behaviour is laudable but naive. Given the extra anonymity of the internet, many people feel that they can be that much more rude to one another. Take a look at how users treat each other when playing UT. That sort of shit is juvenile, but it does happen.
I don't think you have to worry that livius or I created our rules and policies by the seat of our pants, intoxicated by naïve optimism though we may have been. Fortunately we have extensive experience with discussion forums, as moderator, administrator and participant, and we've seen a vast array of behaviors and methods of addressing such.

Quote:
It will happen here too. The only thing you can do to stop pissing contests between users will be to lock the thread, but I suspect that that approach is too top down for the forum you envisioned.
Fortunately we have no intention of trying to stop pissing contests between the users unless their behavior violates our written rules.

Quote:
The problem is, people generally cannot restrain themselves as much on the net as they could in real life. Half of the insults tossed around casually on boards wouldn't be dreamed of being used to someone's face. The chance of a fist breaking your nose acts as quite the deterrent.
True enough.

Quote:
But under the current rule structure, I can call you (or any other user of the board) a cat-fucking, dildo-breathed cretin and there's nothing you can do to stop me.
Exactly. You are free to say whatever you want to say provided you do not violate our written rules.

Quote:
You can censor my posts, or ban me, but neither or those options are legitimate under your rules.
That is correct. We will not censor a post or ban a member for anything short of a rule violation.

Quote:
So you either ignore me, or respond. No doubt, someone will respond on your behalf even if you don't. But what then? How do you stop the ensuing flamewar?
Why should it be our responsibility to "stop the ensuing flamewar"? We are all adults here with the ability to speak freely. We will not babysit you.

Quote:
Why would the person that is insulted out of the blue, and has no means of seeking redress for the poor behavious of others, even want to return to the board after such a display?
There are many reasons I want to be here, and I hope there are as many reasons others will want to be here. Speaking for myself, I value my ability to speak freely enough that I can tolerate being called a cat-fucking, dildo-breathed cretin if need be. If someone cannot handle being called such things they can place anyone who does on their ignore list and continue enjoying themselves here.

Bottom line, our members will stay or go as they choose based on their own assessment of the value of being here. We are not playground monitors. We have no desire to try to ensure that a large group of thoughtful adults play nicely with each other. There are in fact plenty of other forums that offer such an environment to anyone who wants it. This isn't one of them.
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Old 07-20-2004, 08:07 AM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Hi Godot. I think the hope (my hope anyway) is that people will ignore total idiots and trolls, and that disputes between non troll members will be handled directly.
It is a lovely thought, LS, and I too hope that something like this comes to pass. From what vm says in the post below yours, it doesn't look that any intervention will come to pass in the least.
Quote:
For instance, during the <personal details removed> fiasco at HH, you let us go at it and work it out ourselves for the most part, and in the end, we came to a peace of sorts. The only edit I am aware of were the descriptions of <really nasty things>. Why did you choose the hands off approach, and do you regret your choices in the matter?
*
Honestly though, this is hardly the place to discuss the private matter on a private board. All I will say about that situation is that the dispute was between long-standing members and was following a recurring theme. I just allowed it to play out again. As you say, I do have something of a hands off approach to moderation. I think that adults can and will get along fine for the most part, but I am prepared to step in if I feel that something crosses the line. Where you and I draw the line may differ, but I aim to be consistent in where and how I draw it. And I think that a certain type of gory description certainly goes too far.

There is one aspect I think I would have handled differently about it. At the time, I was out on the farm and was lucky to get one hour on the net per day, so I was extremely limited in what I could accomplish. Quite a bit can happen in the other 23 hours. As I'm currently in the city on a cable connection, I am better suited to handling flare-ups of tha nature. Had that happened at a time I could check the boards at will, I guarantee things would have been different. How, I don't know.

*Bits in angle brackets deleted by me.
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Last edited by Godot; 07-20-2004 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 07-20-2004, 08:15 AM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Honestly though, this is hardly the place to discuss the private matter on a private board.
You're right and I didn't even think about it, my apologies. I will edit the specifics on my post if you do the same in your quote please.
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Old 07-20-2004, 08:15 AM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories
I don't think you have to worry that livius or I created our rules and policies by the seat of our pants, intoxicated by naïve optimism though we may have been.
And as I have never suggested otherwise, you have nothing to fear from me.
Quote:
Fortunately we have extensive experience with discussion forums, as moderator, administrator and participant, and we've seen a vast array of behaviors and methods of addressing such.
And you have concluded that a completely hands-off, unfettered approach is best?


Quote:
Fortunately we have no intention of trying to stop pissing contests between the users unless their behavior violates our written rules.
Why is this "fortunate"?

Quote:
Exactly. You are free to say whatever you want to say provided you do not violate our written rules.
And this is what you mean by freethought?

Quote:
Why should it be our responsibility to "stop the ensuing flamewar"? We are all adults here with the ability to speak freely. We will not babysit you.
I'm sorry to hear that you think a relaxing environment requires constant babysitting by you.


Quote:
There are many reasons I want to be here, and I hope there are as many reasons others will want to be here. Speaking for myself, I value my ability to speak freely enough that I can tolerate being called a cat-fucking, dildo-breathed cretin if need be. If someone cannot handle being called such things they can place anyone who does on their ignore list and continue enjoying themselves here.
And this completely sidesteps the issue, that I have raised. So what's the fucking point of my even continuing?

Quote:
Bottom line, our members will stay or go as they choose based on their own assessment of the value of being here. We are not playground monitors. We have no desire to try to ensure that a large group of thoughtful adults play nicely with each other. There are in fact plenty of other forums that offer such an environment to anyone who wants it. This isn't one of them.
Good luck with that. If the place turns into a cesspool of flamewars and bullshit like PWOT (pointless waste of time), will you be content to let that happen or will you step in at some stage to guide the forum to what it is you want it to be?
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Old 07-20-2004, 08:17 AM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
You're right and I didn't even think about it, my apologies. I will edit the specifics on my post if you do the same in your quote please.
Will do, and thanks.
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Old 07-20-2004, 08:44 AM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

I am a member of a pretty much "anything goes" forum that is quite large (5000+ members and over 2 million posts) and one of the most active I have seen in my 10+ years on the 'net. Yes, there are flame wars, but they are not the norm, and basically it is no different than any real life community/society. When someone is blatantly out of line, the other members confront them in an effort to change their behavior.

Basically, unmoderated forums CAN work, it is just a matter of letting the community evolve to some extent. Edited to add: Oh yeah, and it's a paid membership site, if that makes a difference i am not sure.

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Old 07-20-2004, 09:17 AM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

I would say that the paid aspect of it makes for quite a difference.

Right away you have a biased sample: the people involved on that board have all paid for the privilege to be there and are liekly there for a particular purpose. While tempers will flare, I don't think that anyone there wishes to jeopardise their posting status unnecessarily. As such, it is far from comparable to this site, if a valid comparison could be made.
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Old 07-20-2004, 12:51 PM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godot
But under the current rule structure, I can call you (or any other user of the board) a cat-fucking, dildo-breathed cretin and there's nothing you can do to stop me. You can censor my posts, or ban me, but neither or those options are legitimate under your rules. So you either ignore me, or respond. No doubt, someone will respond on your behalf even if you don't. But what then? How do you stop the ensuing flamewar? Why would the person that is insulted out of the blue, and has no means of seeking redress for the poor behavious of others, even want to return to the board after such a display?
If the forum rules/description make no provision for redress, perhaps it's unrealistic to expect that redress can be sought.

Isn't it inherent in a relatively unmoderated forum that one's choices when insulted are limited to responding in kind or choosing to ignore i.e. not to respond to the insult? In my experience, people who argue for less moderation do realize this and incorporate an appeal to posters to be 'more thick-skinned', because that's the only way to limit flame-wars if mods/admins are not assigned to intervene by editing, deleting, banning, etc. Well, and not starting them in the first place, of course ;)

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Old 07-20-2004, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Well, the voting system won't be disabled forever, but meanwhile we're going to have to deal with cat-fucking cretins pretty much as Helen suggested: respond or ignore. I know at least some of those responses won't be in kind, but rather reasoned critiques. I hope to encourage such positive responses with my own behavior. I wouldn't call it particularly laudable or naive; it's just what we're trying here.

If a people prefer an environment of active moderation in which insults, motive speculation, etc. are edited/deleted, then perhaps eblaforum or Internet Infidels or the mother of all general discussion boards, Offtopic.com, would be more to their liking.

As for the board LadyShea mentioned, it does indeed offer an upgraded membership with access to cool shop features and some favorite fora, but registration is free and by default all registered users can post in some 35 extremely active and lively fora. So the whole biased sample thing doesn't really apply. I think Sybermoms is a large, vibrant community and I would be proud to have such a membership here. The gloves are most definitely off, but it's no cesspit.

Others might disagree, of course. That's why there are so many other fora out there to pick from.
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Old 07-20-2004, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godot
I would say that the paid aspect of it makes for quite a difference.

Right away you have a biased sample: the people involved on that board have all paid for the privilege to be there and are liekly there for a particular purpose.
As livius mentioned, the paid membership is not necessary to post. I paid on day one because I wanted access to all fora and so didn't realize how many were available to free registrations.

There is no specific purpose to the board, it is a general discussion board with an emphasis on parenting. People choose to post at Sybermoms because they aren't censored, because they can discuss anything, I read it time and time again there. From their home page

"If you’ve got thick skin, the brains it takes to back up your opinions, and a love of message boards you’ll fit right in! Oh, and before you ask, we do kiss our kids with these mouths!"

Quote:
While tempers will flare, I don't think that anyone there wishes to jeopardise their posting status unnecessarily. As such, it is far from comparable to this site, if a valid comparison could be made.
As I stated, anything goes, and so posting status is never in jeopordy. Trolls and wackos are addressed directly by the community, not mods or admins. They are not banned, or censored, they are taken to task, ridiculed, made to defend their actions by the members themselves.
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Old 07-20-2004, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Godot, I guess my question for you is this: What redress does one have in a real life social situation if someone is offensive or rude?
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Old 07-20-2004, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

I am sorry, I couldn't help a derail, sorry Godot, but LS, what does Sybermom mean? Cold-hearted bitchy syberian moms? What?

-Scott
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Old 07-20-2004, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty
I am sorry, I couldn't help a derail, sorry Godot, but LS, what does Sybermom mean? Cold-hearted bitchy syberian moms? What?

-Scott
Well, I think it was a play on cyber :) They are a bunch of foul mouthed, yet still delightfully real, bitches. Jumping in there ass first is not recommended.
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Old 07-20-2004, 06:03 PM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Godot, I guess my question for you is this: What redress does one have in a real life social situation if someone is offensive or rude?
LS: the redress that I can seek can take any number of situationally dependant forms. If some toff insults me while out on the town, I'll likely tell him to fuck off or plainly ignore him. If the insult is severe enough, I may be moved to have words with the person.
If I am in my own home and someone insults me, they better find the door damn quick and not expect an invite to return anytime soon. If I am in someone else's house and am insulted, my reaction will likely be the same as above. However, there is the added stipulation that I may shun the houseowner if they do nothing to stop it form continuing; if they feel that the insulting of their guests is appropriate behaviour and do not think they should get involved to stop it from happening, my chances of continuing a relationship with that person are very small indeed.

I can appreciate some slack being allowed in all situations though; when I am with my friends, we insult each other terribly, but we all laugh as it is part of the game. If a stranger were to do the same, my reaction would be much, much more severe. I hope that answers your questions sufficiently well.
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Old 07-20-2004, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Hi.
Free speech rules.
Censorship drools.
Thank you.
That is all... for now. :wink:
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Old 07-20-2004, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godot
And as I have never suggested otherwise, you have nothing to fear from me.
My apologies, then. I must have misunderstood you when you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godot
That there is nothing in the rules prohibiting or even discouraging such behaviour is laudable but naive.
If you weren't implying that livius and I were naive in the construction of our rules, what exactly did you mean by that?

Quote:
And you have concluded that a completely hands-off, unfettered approach is best?
No, actually. We have not reached any final conclusions. We have adopted a particular approach and we are trying it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godot
Why is this "fortunate"?
You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godot
The only thing you can do to stop pissing contests between users will be to lock the thread, but I suspect that that approach is too top down for the forum you envisioned.
And I said it is fortunate, then, that we have no intention of trying to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vm
You are free to say whatever you want to say provided you do not violate our written rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godot
And this is what you mean by freethought?
Luckily we have not attempted to define 'freethought', as monumental a task as that would obviously be. Instead we have come up with a short list of principles we seek to uphold here, as described in our Introduction to the Freethought Forum. From there:
Quote:
To this end, the Freethought Forum is inspired by the following four principles:

1. Freedom of thought
2. Freedom of expression
3. Community
4. Self-determination
Quote:
I'm sorry to hear that you think a relaxing environment requires constant babysitting by you.
I'm sorry, can you quote me where I said that?

Quote:
And this completely sidesteps the issue, that I have raised. So what's the fucking point of my even continuing?
Unfortunately I am unclear as to what issue you feel I've side-stepped. If you care to try rephrasing it perhaps I can do a better job of addressing it.

Quote:
Good luck with that. If the place turns into a cesspool of flamewars and bullshit like PWOT (pointless waste of time), will you be content to let that happen or will you step in at some stage to guide the forum to what it is you want it to be?
I have seen no indications that we are headed for anything like the gloomy scenario you seem to think is inevitable. However as I have said repeatedly, we are trying an approach to forum administration that is largely untested, and as such I'm sure we'll have quite a few opportunities to rethink our strategy and management. In the meantime why don't you kick back and try to enjoy yourself. Maybe things won't turn out as badly as you fear.
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Old 07-20-2004, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Okay now I know you really need to get some sleep, tami. ;)
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Old 07-20-2004, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godot
LS: the redress that I can seek can take any number of situationally dependant forms. If some toff insults me while out on the town, I'll likely tell him to fuck off or plainly ignore him. If the insult is severe enough, I may be moved to have words with the person.
If I am in my own home and someone insults me, they better find the door damn quick and not expect an invite to return anytime soon. If I am in someone else's house and am insulted, my reaction will likely be the same as above. However, there is the added stipulation that I may shun the houseowner if they do nothing to stop it form continuing; if they feel that the insulting of their guests is appropriate behaviour and do not think they should get involved to stop it from happening, my chances of continuing a relationship with that person are very small indeed.

I can appreciate some slack being allowed in all situations though; when I am with my friends, we insult each other terribly, but we all laugh as it is part of the game. If a stranger were to do the same, my reaction would be much, much more severe. I hope that answers your questions sufficiently well.

Yes, thank you.

I envision this place much like a real life town square where the only enforced "law" is against physical violence. You may have people chatting quietly, or singing to themselves, or reading, or on a soap box ranting, or insulting each and every passerby. There is no "host" to get redress from, there are no security guards censoring speech, the people using the square determine their own experience.
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  #23  
Old 07-20-2004, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories
If you weren't implying that livius and I were naive in the construction of our rules, what exactly did you mean by that?
Naive in the sense that they do not appear to have been fully thought out to their logical conclusion. Naive in that no (publicly accessible) contingencies exist to deal with any number of situations that could potentially arise. Naive in the sense that you seemingly expect everything to come up roses with minimal hiccups along the way. Naive in that you ask for ruthless criticism and then get defensive and distant when it is sincerely offered. Naive in that as a result of your defensiveness, I have had to withhold from being fully ruthless; an action that may save a friendship (or two) but may harm a website. Naive in that you are attaching a pejorative meaning to the very term "naive" when it is clearly not called for.

Quote:
No, actually. We have not reached any final conclusions. We have adopted a particular approach and we are trying it out.
But why choose this approach over the next? What was so appealing as regards this one? What exactly are the benefits of choosing this one relative to any of the others that you have meticulously and rigorously investigated?

Quote:
And I said it is fortunate, then, that we have no intention of trying to do so.
Please desist in making a circular argument and address the question honestly.

Quote:
Luckily we have not attempted to define 'freethought', as monumental a task as that would obviously be. Instead we have come up with a short list of principles we seek to uphold here, as described in our Introduction to the Freethought Forum. From there:
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To this end, the Freethought Forum is inspired by the following four principles:

1. Freedom of thought
2. Freedom of expression
3. Community
4. Self-determination
And this too doesn't address my question. I asked you what you mean by "freethought" and you replied by providing me with four "principles", all of which are wide open to interpretation. What are the operational definitions you are using when you use those terms? And why are they important above all else? As I said earlier: naive.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godot
I'm sorry to hear that you think a relaxing environment requires constant babysitting by you.
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Originally Posted by viscousmemories
I'm sorry, can you quote me where I said that?
The relevant bit that I quoted reads thus:
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Why should it be our responsibility to "stop the ensuing flamewar"? We are all adults here with the ability to speak freely. We will not babysit you.
Later on in that post, you also said this:
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We are not playground monitors. We have no desire to try to ensure that a large group of thoughtful adults play nicely with each other.
Apparently a civil environment resembles a playground to you, or one that requires babysitting. Now that I've answered your question, address my concern.

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Unfortunately I am unclear as to what issue you feel I've side-stepped. If you care to try rephrasing it perhaps I can do a better job of addressing it.
There really is no point in my doing so; I have stated my case a calmly and clearly as I can, multiple times even. Either my concerns are too esoteric or you just do not comprehend them. I dislike having to repeat myself at the best of times, so I will not do so again.


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I have seen no indications that we are headed for anything like the gloomy scenario you seem to think is inevitable.
I never once said that it was inevitable, and you certainly have no idea what it is I'm thinking. It Is a possibility, and it is readily apparent that it is one that you have not considered. As I said earlier: naive.
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However as I have said repeatedly, we are trying an approach to forum administration that is largely untested, and as such I'm sure we'll have quite a few opportunities to rethink our strategy and management.
You would well do to read my comments about lifelong learning, particularly in the thread that warrenly started where I describe the Kolb Cycle. I'm certain that it would be of use to you.

I am quite aware that your approach is untested and unorthodox; that is why I can criticise it so easily. I have yet to see a case put forth as to why this approach is more desirable than any other. Why this approach is better suited to having you achieve your goals than any other. Above all else, why?
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In the meantime why don't you kick back and try to enjoy yourself. Maybe things won't turn out as badly as you fear.
I'm sure you meant this kindly, but I am reading this as a message to go fuck myself. I have been kicking back and enjoying myself when the time is available: look at my stats in the arcade, for fucks sake. That alone should tell you that I'm relaxing. But there is a time to relax and a time to be vigilant. I have no intention of letting you guys of so easily.
Telling me to "kick back and try to enjoy [my]self" tells me that while you may have read what I've been writing, you certainly haven't been paying attention. It has already been suggested to me that I should just relax and let it be, and let the problems sort themselves out when they arise.

Fuck that.

I've been arguing against that the entire time. To reassert such tripe is nearly enough to make not want to bother at all. I really think that I am wasting my time here.
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  #24  
Old 07-20-2004, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

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Originally Posted by LadyShea
Yes, thank you.

I envision this place much like a real life town square where the only enforced "law" is against physical violence. You may have people chatting quietly, or singing to themselves, or reading, or on a soap box ranting, or insulting each and every passerby. There is no "host" to get redress from, there are no security guards censoring speech, the people using the square determine their own experience.
I agree to some extent, but your analogy is flawed in that there are certain boundary conditions imposed on public places and interactions. In your hypothetical town square, the unwritten rules are enforced by certain societal taboos, or even by the policeman wandering the perimeter. Above all else, the townspeople can beseech the town judiciary or the mayoralty for redress if needs warrant. Even if those taboos are largely societal, they do exist and they dictate what our interactions are going to be.

To think that it is a good idea to eliminate all such boundaries, is itself a boundary.

Edited to add: Take a look at the parliamentary system in place through much of the Commonwealth: You can propose whatever ideas you like but there are prescribed limits to decency, politeness, and so on. How exactly is this a problem?

Do you know what it's called when we insist on politeness, respectfulness, kindness, charity, and so on in dealings with others, preventing them from swearing and insulting each other? Insisting on these things is called civilisation, and that it sets us apart from those who don't have a genuine commitment to lifelong learning and mutual understanding. The insistence on no rules it itself a rule; saying that people decide on the way they will interact is also a rule.
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  #25  
Old 07-20-2004, 08:05 PM
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LadyShea LadyShea is offline
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Default Re: Limits to Free Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godot
I agree to some extent, but your analogy is flawed in that there are certain boundary conditions imposed on public places and interactions. In your hypothetical town square, the unwritten rules are enforced by certain societal taboos, or even by the policeman wandering the perimeter. Above all else, the townspeople can beseech the town judiciary or the mayoralty for redress if needs warrant. Even if those taboos are largely societal, they do exist and they dictate what our interactions are going to be.

To think that it is a good idea to eliminate all such boundaries, is itself a boundary.

Edited to add: Take a look at the parliamentary system in place through much of the Commonwealth: You can propose whatever ideas you like but there are prescribed limits to decency, politeness, and so on. How exactly is this a problem?

Do you know what it's called when we insist on politeness, respectfulness, kindness, charity, and so on in dealings with others, preventing them from swearing and insulting each other? Insisting on these things is called civilisation, and that it sets us apart from those who don't have a genuine commitment to lifelong learning and mutual understanding. The insistence on no rules it itself a rule; saying that people decide on the way they will interact is also a rule.
Yes, but the community and society decides those types of boundries, not some individual or committee, correct? All I was asking for here is to let the community evolve and grow and set it's own boundries. I know of no real life community that has laws about being polite or chartiable.

What you are talking about is a community culture, and that culture is determined by the members. Take for instance a commons area on a University campus, you might expect a far different experience at Harvard than at CU Boulder, correct? Both are simply open public areas, but the people determine what happens there.
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