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Old 03-28-2015, 03:16 AM
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Default A Life Without Religion

I was raised Catholic and had 12 years of Catholic education. After high school I joined the Navy and that started my Secular life. I left Catholicism and Religion behind.

I joined the UU's around 1990 and stayed with them for about 6 years. Although they are recognized as a Religion by the Government, they are pretty Secular. There is a joke about UU's that goes "UU's are a bunch of atheists who never got out of the habit of going to church." There is some truth to that since there were many, many atheists in my congregation.

I had joined the UU's for community but eventually didn't find it there. They talk a lot about building community but in their youth education they stress individuality and most of the adults are very individualistic. On one hand I like a lot of individuality but on the other hand I also like community and they tend not to mix very well.

Both individuality and community play important parts in my Philosophy of Life. However, I talk about both without any reference to Religion and there is no talk about Religion in my books.

I am not an atheist and I am not against having a religion. I just do without it.
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Old 03-28-2015, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: A Life Without Religion

You don't seem to know much about the UU church membership. The Unitarian Universalist church was founded on religious principles. But, my experience with the UU church is that the membership's personal beliefs run the gamut, from atheist and humanists to pagans and believers in that one god UU church was founded around. Many UU congregations are entirely too religious for me, others more secular.

Early Unitarians actually read the bible and concluded that there was one god, no trinity, that Jesus never claimed to be God, only the child of God, as all humans are. They merged with the Universalist church, whose members believed in universal salvation, they could not believe in a god that would punish someone for all eternity for finite sins. The UU church believes you should form your own personal spiritual philosophy, and they will pretty much accept that you believe whatever loony crap you come up with, which is why you should fit right in, Bob.
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Old 03-28-2015, 01:02 PM
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Default Re: A Life Without Religion

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You don't seem to know much about the UU church membership. The Unitarian Universalist church was founded on religious principles. But, my experience with the UU church is that the membership's personal beliefs run the gamut, from atheist and humanists to pagans and believers in that one god UU church was founded around. Many UU congregations are entirely too religious for me, others more secular.

Early Unitarians actually read the bible and concluded that there was one god, no trinity, that Jesus never claimed to be God, only the child of God, as all humans are. They merged with the Universalist church, whose members believed in universal salvation, they could not believe in a god that would punish someone for all eternity for finite sins. The UU church believes you should form your own personal spiritual philosophy, and they will pretty much accept that you believe whatever loony crap you come up with, which is why you should fit right in, Bob.
Yes you are correct. However, I wasn't that aware of the diversity in my particular congregation. Back then the minister was a theist while the majority of the congregation was atheist-humanist. There was endless debate about this division.

Now however the minister is a Buddhist so things there might be entirely different. Maybe one of these Sundays I'll go and find out what it is like now.
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Old 03-28-2015, 01:53 PM
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Default Re: A Life Without Religion

Try it, you might like it.
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Old 03-28-2015, 04:03 PM
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I have my standards as well. I would never want to be part of church that would have me as a member.
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Old 03-28-2015, 05:03 PM
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Same here. I may still be listed as a member of one UU church, and know for sure I am still on a Southern Baptist church role, but I can't muster one give-a-shit about it.
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Old 03-28-2015, 05:27 PM
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I have my standards as well. I would never want to be part of church that would have me as a member.
Groucho! I thought you had died but I must admit I laughed at your one-liners so welcome back to life.
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Old 03-28-2015, 05:39 PM
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I am not an atheist and I am not against having a religion. I just do without it.
Bob, so I take it you think there is a god or gods?
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Old 03-28-2015, 05:52 PM
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Default Re: A Life Without Religion

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I am not an atheist and I am not against having a religion. I just do without it.
Bob, so I take it you think there is a god or gods?
I don't believe that there is necessarily a god but that there is a possibility that there is one. In either case, I don't completely rule it out and deny it like an atheist.

I do think there is a first cause but I don't know if it is natural or supernatural.
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Old 03-28-2015, 06:12 PM
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So as far as you are concerned, you don't act or behave as if there were a god or gods? For all intents you are without a belief in god?
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Old 03-28-2015, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: A Life Without Religion

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I am not an atheist and I am not against having a religion. I just do without it.
Bob, so I take it you think there is a god or gods?
I don't believe that there is necessarily a god but that there is a possibility that there is one. In either case, I don't completely rule it out and deny it like an atheist.

I do think there is a first cause but I don't know if it is natural or supernatural.
As far as the first cause is concerned if it was natural then I think it was a chance event something akin to a "perfect storm." If it was supernatural then god was a Creator., something along the lines of Deism.
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Old 03-28-2015, 06:50 PM
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So Bob, is there difference between knowing and belief?
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Old 03-28-2015, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: A Life Without Religion

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So Bob, is there difference between knowing and belief?
Most definitely. Strictly speaking, knowing is the province of the mind while believing is the province of the heart. Generally speaking, they intermesh and are harmonized in the psyche.
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Old 03-28-2015, 07:16 PM
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So do you lack a belief in god or gods?
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  #15  
Old 03-28-2015, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: A Life Without Religion

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So do you lack a belief in god or gods?
I thought I just explained myself. But if it will make it more clear then I will say that I believe that there is a possibility that there is one god. I don't rule it out.
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Old 03-28-2015, 07:30 PM
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I didn't ask you the odds of your belief about the object, I asked you about the existence of your belief about the object. Not the subject of your belief, but your belief in the subject. But if you don't actually know if you have a belief, then you don't have it, or dementia is setting in quicker than you know.
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Old 03-28-2015, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: A Life Without Religion

Bob said he didn't think there was necessarily a god, but could not preclude the possibility. Sounds like an agnostic position to me.
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Old 03-28-2015, 08:11 PM
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Bob said he didn't think there was necessarily a god, but could not preclude the possibility. Sounds like an agnostic position to me.
Bob also said he made a distinction between believing and knowing. I'm not asking about his knowledge about god(s) and their existence, I'm asking about his belief in god(s).

Belief is a lot like being pregnant.
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Old 03-28-2015, 08:15 PM
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Seems to me he was making that distinction, when he said that he didn't think there was necessarily a god. To me that implies he doesn't believe there is a god. Or maybe I'm letting my own thoughts on the subject color my interpretation. For me, I don't believe there is any god or gods or anything supernatural. But, I'm sure I don't know everything, so I think there might be one that I don't know about.
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Old 03-28-2015, 08:24 PM
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I was trying to get him to clarify his thoughts, but in typical Bob fashion, he thinks he can write a book but in fact he can't clearly express a thought, not even his own. Let alone understand thoughts of any complexity.

Bob is more aspirational than he is knowledgeable.
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Old 03-28-2015, 08:25 PM
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i bet he could weave a hell of a basket.
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Old 03-28-2015, 08:28 PM
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Default Re: A Life Without Religion

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Seems to me he was making that distinction, when he said that he didn't think there was necessarily a god. To me that implies he doesn't believe there is a god. Or maybe I'm letting my own thoughts on the subject color my interpretation. For me, I don't believe there is any god or gods or anything supernatural. But, I'm sure I don't know everything, so I think there might be one that I don't know about.
Maybe I make distinctions which might be able to be comprehended by others. in which case I will try to be as clear as possible. I think Dingford has it correct although I don't usually label myself as being an agnostic.

In any case, I don't want to feel as if I am on trial in a court of Law so please refrain from being a prosecutor.

Why don't you all tell me what you think or believe and then we can compare notes?
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Old 03-28-2015, 08:31 PM
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Me? Like I said, I believe there are no gods or supernatural forces. Even if there are some that I don't know about, I'm going to live my life as if there are none until I am convinced otherwise. Someone once asked me what it would take for me to believe in God. I said, a traumatic brain injury.
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Old 03-28-2015, 08:36 PM
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Default Re: A Life Without Religion

I have no idea how belief is like being pregnant, but I do know there is a clear distinction between beliefs and knowledge – although, contra Bob, beliefs, like feelings, do not literally reside in the heart, as Bob believes. They reside in the brain.

This is why it pays to know even a little … philosophy.

Bob sounds like an agnostic. Agnosticism has to do with knowledge claims, not belief claims (gnosis = knowledge). Bob doesn’t know whether there is a god or gods or not, and nor, for that matter, does anyone else. Technically, that makes us all agnostics.

Beliefs are a different matter. A person who lacks belief in God or gods is a weak atheist. A person who believes there is no God is a strong atheist. It remains questionable how important the distinction between these two categories is.

If you lack a belief in God but acknowledge that you do not know whether God exists, you are an agnostic atheist. That’s what Richard Dawkins is. He assigns a high probability to the “no God” hypothesis but it falls short of 100 percent, which is another way of saying he doesn’t know.

If you believe in God but acknowledge that you do not know whether god exists, you are an agnostic theist.

It’s also possible to be a Christian atheist, which is probably what Dostoevsky was.
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Old 03-28-2015, 08:37 PM
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Seems to me he was making that distinction, when he said that he didn't think there was necessarily a god. To me that implies he doesn't believe there is a god. Or maybe I'm letting my own thoughts on the subject color my interpretation. For me, I don't believe there is any god or gods or anything supernatural. But, I'm sure I don't know everything, so I think there might be one that I don't know about.
As for myself I have no knowledge about the existence or non-existence of god(s) or supernatural things of any kind. But I also lack any belief in such. I go about my daily business as if such things do not matter at all and thus for all intents and purposes might as well not exist if they even do exist.

In that way I am without belief in god(s). So I am an atheist (as in a-theist, without belief in god(s)).

My training as a scientist did not teach me to separate anything I experienced into the natural or supernatural. It is all natural all the time. Ignorance doesn't make anything supernatural, just unknown.

I actually think the whole religion thing is very silly. Caring if I am an atheist is as important to me as caring if I am an a-unicorn-ist. I am an aunicornist (lack of belief in unicorns), but then there are all sorts of things I lack a belief in. So what? It's all just silly. Nothing more than just another way to try to control people using their ignorance.
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