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06-03-2011, 05:18 PM
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California Sober
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Gender: Bender
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I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Sure, I could wait until my GLBT studies class starts in the fall and show up ready to learn instead of being a know-it-all who's just there for the easy A from day one, but where's the fun in that?
Someone (I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume it was lisarea) linked to Geek Feminism Wiki and I've been on an archive binge for going on 48 hours. TVTropes got nothing on that site. A couple of times I have come across the expression "conditional cissexual privilege" and I don't know what it means. I looked up cissexual on wikipedia and learned:
Quote:
Cissexual is an adjective used in the context of gender issues to describe "people who are not transsexual and who have only ever experienced their mental and physical sexes as being aligned".[1] Nikki Sullivan and Samantha Murray characterized the term as "a way of drawing attention to the unmarked norm, against which trans* is identified, in which a person feels that their gender identity matches their body/sex".
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For not the first time in my life, I felt that grunch (a different grunch from the geek feminism grunch) of becoming aware of a privilege I never realized I had. That's usually the way it works, innit?
What's my point? Oh yeah, I had a question, probably because I got there from the link on the Restrooms page. Suppose you have a woman who identifies as a woman and who was born all XX and with female organs and all that (what do you call that? Is that what cissexual means?) and she's a lesbian. She's not a crossdresser, but she wears her hair short and she wears pants and button-down shirts and no makeup, and she is often told "wrong room" when she walks into the ladies room. I don't mean they were like "stay out, dyke" I mean they honestly thought she was a man and were even contrite once she was like "uh, no, it's not" back at them. Is there a different word for that? Does she also enjoy conditional cissexual privilege?
Last edited by Ensign Steve; 06-03-2011 at 06:16 PM.
Reason: thanks, mick
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06-03-2011, 06:03 PM
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you're next
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Gender: Bender
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign Steve
She's not a crossdresser, but she wears her hair short and she wears pants and button-down shirts and no makeup, and she is often told "wrong room" when she walks into the ladies room. I don't mean they were like "stay out, dyke" I mean they honestly thought she was a man and were even contrite once she was like "uh, no, it's not" back at them. Is there a different word for that?
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Pat.
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paranoid fringe dweller
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06-03-2011, 06:11 PM
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Mr. Condescending Dick Nose
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Augsburg
Gender: Male
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign Steve
Suppose you have a woman who identifies as a woman and who was born all XY and with female organs and all that (what do you call that? Is that what cissexual means?) ...
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Do you mean "born all XX" because XY is the male configuration of sex chromosomes?
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... it's just an idea
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06-03-2011, 06:16 PM
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California Sober
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Gender: Bender
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Yes, I did, thank you. That totally changes the question.
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06-03-2011, 06:40 PM
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Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
I do not know because I only just started reading about it because of your fault, but that will not prevent me from talking out of my ass.
I would vote it doesn't qualify, simply because you can say "Nope. Vagina," and resolve the actual gender-sex issue. Even if you still have homophobia and general gender binary policing, you don't have the fundamental, "No, you're not" response that you get if you don't have the Ultimate Front Bottom Defense.
Cis people who do have those issues are probably more likely to have clickable moments, though, about their privilege in having a definitive and non-rebuttable defense.
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06-03-2011, 06:49 PM
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an angry unicorn or a non-murdering leprechaun
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edge of Society
Gender: Female
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
I would say, yes she has cissexual privilege. "Privilege" can itself be a loaded word. IIRC it comes as a translation from French from the work of Derrida and is imprecise in our language. For that reason I prefer to use "Primacy" as that is a better term for what they are describing.
In any binary there will be a trait that has primacy/privilege and another that is defined by being not that trait. The one that is outside is Othered. For example, white in western culture has primacy, anything that is not white is the Other. In Feminist criticism, man has primacy and woman is that which is defined as not being a man. In your example, this woman is cissexual, and therefore has the primary trait and thus "enjoys privilege" (again annoyed at the loaded language.) I try to think of it in terms of symbolic logic, white vs. ~White, cissexual vs. ~cissexual.
So if she is white, she enjoys white privilege/primacy. A homosexual man also has the trait that makes him have male privilege/primacy. Does that make sense? I don't know the math language but it is like subsets in a way, maybe?
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06-03-2011, 06:58 PM
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an angry unicorn or a non-murdering leprechaun
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edge of Society
Gender: Female
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Edited above for the research nuts, because it was duh Derrida, not Foucault. Though the latter has written some great stuff.
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06-03-2011, 07:01 PM
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California Sober
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Gender: Bender
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Yeah, I don't know why I said "enjoy" when I meant a very obscure definition of the word, but I hope I got my meaning across. It is awfully loaded. I probably should have said "experience".
Primacy, I like that.
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06-03-2011, 07:03 PM
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improperly uses ellipses....... with panache
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: south shore of the upper lake
Gender: Female
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
the transgender man-ling (almost 18) in my life
would probably have something to say about
gender vs sex.... we are busy with graduation
weekend but if there are no objections, i would
ask him to weigh in .....
ps... the issues surrounding his use of bathrooms
were what ultimately drove him out of school to
finish his senior year on his own... way to suck, WHS
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proudly holding to the party line of willfully ignorant self-interest
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06-03-2011, 07:05 PM
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California Sober
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Gender: Bender
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Quote:
Originally Posted by irukandji
the transgender man-ling (almost 18) in my life
would probably have something to say about
gender vs sex.... we are busy with graduation
weekend but if there are no objections, i would
ask him to weigh in .....
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By all means! I specifically hoped to hear from you, and him via you, when I made the post.
Enjoy graduation weekend and chime in when you're able. This thread isn't going anywhere.
Also, congrats!
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06-03-2011, 07:07 PM
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an angry unicorn or a non-murdering leprechaun
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edge of Society
Gender: Female
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Not a critique of you, ES. Actually "enjoying privilege" is the most common way I have seen critics and peers express it. It is accurate but often misinterpreted, that's all. As a result I have heard many many half cocked English majors go on and on and on when they miss the point of deconstruction as a process. Flash backs from stupid seminars I guess.
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06-03-2011, 07:09 PM
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Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Grar. You assholes are making me have to think about stuff and it is making me hurty and tired.
And I am old and words are hard, but there's like this thing where there are very common fallacies about top-down hierarchies as opposed to the actual relational hierarchies that are the real kind? Like so yeah, organic hierarchies are not like corporate org charts but more like relational databases, such that like if Party A is dominant in some aspect over Party B, who in the same aspect is dominant over Party C, Party C might still dominate Party A rather than being two guys down in the hierarchy?
lol I can't talk good but you know what I mean? I can go to that online tools thrad and I think there's a diagrammer in there.
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06-03-2011, 07:10 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
With bathrooms, yeah it's all about the equipment.
Vaginas use the ladies room, even if the vagina is attached to someone who looks like they have a penis. Hell, even if the vagina is attached to someone who used to have a penis, but now has a vagina.
Maybe I am a glue sniffer, but isn't gender ID a legal designation in some circumstances? I mean can you have "N/A" on your driver's license?
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06-03-2011, 07:11 PM
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California Sober
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Gender: Bender
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea
Like so yeah, organic hierarchies are not like corporate org charts but more like relational databases, such that like if Party A is dominant in some aspect over Party B, who in the same aspect is dominant over Party C, Party C might still dominate Party A rather than being two guys down in the hierarchy?
lol I can't talk good but you know what I mean? I can go to that online tools thrad and I think there's a diagrammer in there.
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Actually, you're making me flash back to tournament digraphs (and transitive sub-tournaments) from graph theory and that makes me a sad panda. I forwent the math minor and added the diversity studies class on account of graph theory in the first place!
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06-03-2011, 07:20 PM
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an angry unicorn or a non-murdering leprechaun
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edge of Society
Gender: Female
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
and here I was thinking you gals could help me translate this into a better math analogy. I have struggled to describe it before and the symbolic logic thing was the best I could come up with in study groups. A diagram would rock though for visual learner types like me. Now I want to try and make a chart of public figures and their individual binaries like Obama, and Rosanne, and Oprah and what not.
Sorry for the flash back, but you started it.
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06-03-2011, 07:39 PM
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California Sober
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Gender: Bender
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demimonde
Now I want to try and make a chart of public figures and their individual binaries like Obama, and Rosanne, and Oprah and what not.
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I'll forgive you if you show us the chart.
Don't forget Neil deGrasse Tyson. Did you know that in addition to being very smart, male, and attractive, he's also black?
He's on my mind a lot recently because his name came up in the conversation about physically attractive (female) scientists in the blogs that were linked to from the other thread. And there's a book with his picture on the cover in my living room right now (I'm not reading it, lol, puhleese) and whenever I see the cover, I'm like, I have to give it to them. That is one good-looking scientist.
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06-03-2011, 07:46 PM
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Mr. Condescending Dick Nose
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Augsburg
Gender: Male
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demimonde
and here I was thinking you gals could help me translate this into a better math analogy. I have struggled to describe it before and the symbolic logic thing was the best I could come up with in study groups.
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I'm thinking your symbolic logic does a reasonable job of pointing to the significance, for those so defined, of being understood (and hence, dealt with) in terms, not of what they are, but of what they are not. I don't see how set theory could improve on it or draw a clearer picture, because set theory is indifferent to that distinction, I think.
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... it's just an idea
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06-03-2011, 07:55 PM
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simple country microbiologist hyperchicken
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: georgia
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
as a random aside, cis and trans are both terms in organic chemistry.
cis is when they are pointing in the same direction and trans is when they are pointing in opposite directions.
Like if you had two methyl groups on a cyclohexane, if both methyl groups were pointing up they would be cis.
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06-03-2011, 07:57 PM
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California Sober
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Gender: Bender
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Interesting. When I first started googling "cissexual", I kept getting all this super sciency stuff about gene expression and whatnot, and I was like "no, not that!"
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06-03-2011, 08:56 PM
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Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
I'm guessing that someone having "conditional cissexual privilege" is a fancy way of saying that the person in question can "pass".
So, if a transsexual man can pass as a cissexual man, then he will have access to magical man sparkles on the condition that those around him don't know that he's transsexual. This is why they decided not to call it magical penis sparkles. It does seem like a relatively corner case to me (there aren't many transmen, fewer in science/geekdom, fewer who can pass and fewer who would choose to) but I suppose it does technically invalidate the magical penis term, sorta. You could still justify it in that the conditional cissexual privilege operates on the assumption that the transman has a magical penis (that he was born with). ETA: Then again, being a transwoman with a penis does not grant you magical penis sparkles, even if everyone is aware that you have a penis, so I guess it is more (cissexual) man sparkles than penis sparkles.
Also I know things! Why you actin' like I don't know things and irukandji knows everything and I don't?! I had a women's studies minor and my brother is trans, so nyah.
Last edited by erimir; 06-03-2011 at 09:14 PM.
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06-03-2011, 09:00 PM
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California Sober
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Gender: Bender
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir
Why you actin' like I don't know things and irukandji knows everything and I don't?!
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Blatant tokenism, obviously.
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06-04-2011, 12:27 AM
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California Sober
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Gender: Bender
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Otay, now that I'm not on my way out of the office, I'll say a real answer.
I didn't know you had a trans brother! That's totes interesting. You say brother, does that mean he's F to M?
Oh wait. Also, I didn't mean that I only wanted to hear from irukandji, just that I especially wanted to hear from her.
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06-04-2011, 12:52 AM
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Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
No, he's MTF, but he hasn't asked for female pronouns at this point, and he hasn't started presenting himself as female as far as I know. But he has started hormones.
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06-04-2011, 01:09 AM
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improperly uses ellipses....... with panache
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: south shore of the upper lake
Gender: Female
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir
No, he's MTF, but he hasn't asked for female pronouns at this point, and he hasn't started presenting himself as female as far as I know. But he has started hormones.
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wow! adrien has had to " live the life"
in his expressed gender for a minimum
of one year before he would even be
considered for hormone therapy...
even then, he qualified psychologically,
having been nearly 2 years in gender
therapy, but was denied testosterone
because his cholesterol was high and
he needed to lose some weight...
"T" raises cholesterol and also seems to
have an effect on weight gain...
he is being held very closely to the standards,
practices and protocols of WPATH, the World
Professional Association for Transgender Health
he is waiting til he turns 18 in july to try again
(having lost 35 pounds and dropped his cholesterol
from 224 to 201) hoping that being an "adult" will
allow for more wiggle room in the protocols
__________________
proudly holding to the party line of willfully ignorant self-interest
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06-04-2011, 05:44 AM
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Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
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Re: I need transgender education and it's all your fault!
Hmmm, well, I dunno about all that stuff.
He does a lot of stuff that he doesn't tell me about. Honestly, in the past he was a bit of a dick about gay issues, which I think was him overcompensating for his own issues. And he has a bit of temper, which might also be related. Personality-wise we don't get along as well as I do with my other brother.
Anyway, we're not especially close, so he doesn't tell me a lot of stuff. I know he was seeing some kind of therapist for a while, so he might've been fulfilling some of those requirements, but he definitely has not been living as a female. I haven't seen him presenting as a female at all.
Honestly I was a bit surprised when I first found out since he conforms to conventional masculinity a lot more than I do, and in some ways even more than our "normal" brother (the straight one who was in the Marines, but who doesn't like sports, has almost exclusively female friends and likes some unmanly things like Glee) in that he loves Call of Duty, sports and beer and his friends are mostly pretty conventional males (as far as gender).
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